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IE 11 is still supported by Microsoft because it is tied to Windows 10 support. If you're B2C you can probably ignore that and just not support it, but if you'

IE 11 is still supported by Microsoft because it is tied to Windows 10 support. If you're B2C you can probably ignore that and just not support it, but if you're B2B where you're selling not to users it's very hard to get away from supporting IE11. If your users never directly interact with you (for example you sell white-label software which gets resold) then you just can't control your end-user tech stack enough. If you're selling to partners who sell to companies who push out logins to their customers or user base then even if <1% of users use IE 11, that becomes 5% of companies having a user with it, which becomes 30% of the partners who are asking for IE11 support. It's one thing to turn down 1% of users it's quite another to annoy 30% of your income stream. As long as bootstrap 4 is supported (and the legacy bootstrap 3 support suggests it will be) then this doesn't have to be a problem of course, just one more thing to be aware of.

wil421 7y ago
Somehow the large FinTech company I work for dropped support for IE 11 and just asked employees to use Chrome. Even users still on Windows 7. We run a few customer portals and a customer facing ticketing system. Until now I’ve never been able to rid myself of IE 11. It’s very nice. Small banks aren’t so happy.
- zihotki 7y ago
  It's just your large FinTech company probably doesn't have goverment contracts and/or huge enterprises as clients.
  - acdha 7y ago
    Or they’ve been successful in marketing this as a security requirement. That carries a lot of weight in .gov and anything involving finance, medical data, FERPA, etc. has a pretty solid argument for pushing secure clients since it’s free and easy.
  - nailer 7y ago
    Friend is in one the top 3 law firms in the world. They have a corporate Chrome rollout, since at least one of their web apps requires a current browser.
munchbunny 7y ago
Personally I’m hopeful for the day when Edge becomes default. I believe it’s still able to use the older engines for compatibility, but not having to code for Trident for default Windows users would be so nice!
- gsnedders 7y ago
  (Chromium) Edge has an "IE Mode" where it uses Trident for specified sites. Very clearly the move here is to get enterprise clients using Edge internally, as it means they have a modern browser on the public web but can maintain compatibility with internal IE-only systems.
  - m-p-3 7y ago
    It's a good migration path, where they'll eventually be able to fully deprecate Trident.
    - gsnedders 7y ago
      I expect Trident is a very long way from being killed, if it ever is. I expect it'll remain around for much the same reason as many of the old Windows APIs have.
duxup 7y ago
I'm fortunate enough to be in the B2B where our customers are generally less tech inclined so we can actually say "You really shouldn't use IE, download this." and they actually do it. And our customers customer's are even less technically inclined, and they do it too. Some even come back with feedback "Hey this other stuff works now!" I like to think we're helping make the world a better place ;) Granted while the leverage is nice, supporting those customers can be a bear.
- websitescenes 7y ago
  I have exactly the opposite experience with B2B. We’re working with financial institutions and large dealers and what they use is typically white listed and controlled by an IT department. Typically, they can’t just change and use whatever they want. You must be talking about small businesses?
  - KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
    > I'm fortunate enough to be in the B2B where our customers are generally less tech inclined
  - duxup 7y ago
    Some are small. Having said that some are pretty well known large companies, but the business units that sort of operate on their own if only due to their archaic nature. The company has a policy, it just doesn't always apply to them. Logistics is a weird industry ;)
    - websitescenes 7y ago
      I always found logistics interesting. Moving stuff around efficiently seems to be a real art. Many opportunities to use data. We use a few different logistics companies and I kick around the idea of bringing it in house sometimes.
      - duxup 7y ago
chatmasta 7y ago
Doesn’t Microsoft advise against using IE11 because of security reasons, except for critical internal applications that only support IE11? [0] It’s mind blowing to me that companies continue to use an insecure browser, to the point of insisting on it. Why can’t vendors refuse to support IE11 on the grounds that it’s a security risk? If you reframe the problem to “IE11 is insecure,” surely customers will adapt? [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-security-chief-ie-is-not-a-browser-so-stop-using-it-as-your-default/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-security-chief-ie-is...
- Kye 7y ago
  COBOL is still in use 61 years later. Institutional inertia is very much in style. Vendors can't dictate terms to the people paying the bills.
  - chatmasta 7y ago
    They can if the software is good enough and the customer really wants it.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - _ZeD_ 7y ago
      not if the ones using the software are not the ones that pay
      - Dangeranger 7y ago
        If you are big enough, and people want to use your software enough, you can dictate what you will support no matter who is paying.[0] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/30/flash-youtube-nostalgia https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/30/flash-you...
      - chatmasta 7y ago
        If you’re losing a sale because your software doesn’t work in IE11, maybe your software isn’t actually all that good. I understand some companies insist on IE11, but companies insist on a lot of “requirements” that aren’t actually necessary if you push back on them. When the rubber hits the road, if your software is truly the best/only option, they can find a way to use a secure browser to access it.
bluedino 7y ago
I had to support IE6 until 2012 because a certain company didn't upgrade their workstations...
- wtdo 7y ago
  In 2015 I was writing a brand new web frontend for IE 5.5 on a mobile device with something like 240x360 screen dimensions (I forget the details now) for one of the most valuable companies in the world. We had complete control over the devices the users used (the company gave the users those devices). Admittedly, plans were in place to upgrade those devices, but it was still a fair bit out. I left before that happened.
fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
I work for a relatively large B2B company and we’ve managed to convince the business to drop support for IE11 and Edge (the EdgeHTML rendering engine version). It was just a matter of pointing out the development cost and using analytics to show that very few of our users uses either browser.
- duhi88 7y ago
  How did you have that conversation? The clients I work for are all still worried about losing business due to dropping IE11...so we don't. They have no analytics on which devices generate income, so it is hard to have that conversation. We know that IE11 hovers around 3% for most of our sites, and I doubt that many of those hits come from legitimate users, let alone someone who is going to purchase something.
wayoutthere 7y ago
My company has a few SaaS apps that really only work in Chrome. I would say Chrome is a more prevalent corporate browser than IE11 at this point. The biggest issue with IE11 from a corporate IT support perspective is that it is not cross-platform so it adds another platform to test and validate against. Most organizations have to support some level of Mac usage for software developers and executives, so it makes more sense to officially support only a single browser.
tln 7y ago
IME, the IE11 users have all been able to use another browser. We send them to version of our site that includes all the right polyfills and allows signups/browsing marketing but NOT using the main app. When users arrive on IE11 and need to use the app they are always able to fire up chrome/Firefox/edge. The only users with an old browser and won't/can't upgrade have had win7 + ancient Firefox.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  IME, the IE11 users have all been able to use another browser. Then your company must not have any customers in security-conscious industries like healthcare. Any well-run IT department doesn't just allow the company's employees to install and run any old browser they want because a web site told them to do so. I am forced to support IE11 because a very large number of doctors, hospitals, and other healthcare providers use it. These people cannot simply "fire up chrome/Firefox/edge."
  - ehutch79 7y ago
    'security conscious' and 'forced to use ie11' do not go together
  - TheAceOfHearts 7y ago
    It's not very security-conscious of them to continue using IE11. These healthcare companies are being incredibly irresponsible by continuing to use an insecure and outdated browser; even going against Microsoft's own recommendation in doing so, as I understand it. By supporting IE11 your company is helping to enable the healthcare industry to continue using insecure software. A well-run IT department should be able to provide its users with a modern and secure browser. Why does your definition of a well-run IT department include the requirement that software installations should be restricted, but not a requirement to avoid using insecure and outdated software? I believe one can make a compelling case that the continued use of IE11 within the healthcare industry is unethical, as it provides a known attack vector by which people's data can potentially be stolen. Stop giving them a pass on this.
  - propinquity 7y ago
taf2 7y ago
We're mostly a voice application so with WebRTC being a requirement to our application we've completely dropped support for IE11 and Edge (pre chromium) We've had to maintain support for Safari which has been very problematic since they initially released WebRTC support but not exactly bug free. That said it's a joy to develop for the web now without worrying about IE
MisterTea 7y ago
> IE 11 is still supported by Microsoft because it is tied to Windows 10 support. And slow to adopt banks who's check scanner software STILL depends on some ie11 feature. Edge support is coming "soon" which apparently includes the past 3 or 4 years.
marcthe12 7y ago
Personally I feel the correct solution for ie is to have stuff polyfilled and transcompiled by the user. So js libs, you also transcompile the libraries also and provide the polyfills.
leifg 7y ago
Not to mention that if your software sends out emails with links to your application, chances are high that your client's email client (Outlook) will open the links in the default browser (which still might be IE). So even if you can convince them to use a different browser, be prepared to tell them how to configure the browser to be the default one.
- bcrosby95 7y ago
  That's interesting. Part of why we started supporting IE is because some of our most important users somehow ended up on our website in IE, despite not normally using IE. Wonder if this is the only reason why.
  - ehutch79 7y ago
    I bet if you make a popup with instructions on switching the default browser when ie pops up, it'll go down
gentleman11 7y ago
I have been helping maintain and update an online fabric store. If anybody is going to be using ie11, it’s old people with old computers buying fabric for things. I think it’s still 7% of the larger market, no? I don’t see how stores can just ignore 7% of users unfortunately
- wpietri 7y ago
  It looks like 2-4% of usage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers However, there's a big difference between 4% of users and 4% of market. Not everybody out there is a customer, and not all customers buy equally. So the revenue falloff sill surely be smaller. Typical browser stats also don't account for what people do if something doesn't work. Having browser issues surely will cause some lost sales. But even the least tech-savvy of people will try something on another device, like their phone, or ask somebody to do it for them. Making the revenue impact even smaller.
  - gsnedders 7y ago
    Note that all the browser market share data shows a distinct difference between weekday and weekend browser market share: IE has way more market share during the week.
wpietri 7y ago
Since it's open source, it sounds like companies who get 30% of their money from IE users should start giving enough back in time and money that Bootstrap does what they need. That, or look up parables on gift horses and little red hens.
phyzome 7y ago
Also consider: - For some websites (e.g. government) it is important not to "lose" even 1% of the potential userbase -- it's another type of accessibility - For some websites, IE 11 usage will be considerably more than 1% in the first place
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
keithnz 7y ago
It's different for all kinds of of markets, in the markets we deal with (primary industries), our experience is, a lot of IE11 users are users with a lot of $ who have a lot of infrastructure built around older tech. The old tech keeps working fine, which is great in many ways. So, I think unless Microsoft kills it, IE11 is still the minimum for widest adoption. However, for my side projects, I just care about the evergreens.
modmans2nd 7y ago
Imagine a world not too far away where Credge is the only browser accessible and IE tab is available there but doesn’t open unless there’s a flag on a site to say “use IE Tab”

wil421 7y ago

Somehow the large FinTech company I work for dropped support for IE 11 and just asked employees to use Chrome. Even users still on Windows 7. We run a few customer portals and a customer facing ticketing system. Until now I’ve never been able to rid myself of IE 11. It’s very nice. Small banks aren’t so happy.

zihotki 7y ago
It's just your large FinTech company probably doesn't have goverment contracts and/or huge enterprises as clients.
- acdha 7y ago
  Or they’ve been successful in marketing this as a security requirement. That carries a lot of weight in .gov and anything involving finance, medical data, FERPA, etc. has a pretty solid argument for pushing secure clients since it’s free and easy.
- nailer 7y ago
  Friend is in one the top 3 law firms in the world. They have a corporate Chrome rollout, since at least one of their web apps requires a current browser.

munchbunny 7y ago

Personally I’m hopeful for the day when Edge becomes default. I believe it’s still able to use the older engines for compatibility, but not having to code for Trident for default Windows users would be so nice!

gsnedders 7y ago
(Chromium) Edge has an "IE Mode" where it uses Trident for specified sites. Very clearly the move here is to get enterprise clients using Edge internally, as it means they have a modern browser on the public web but can maintain compatibility with internal IE-only systems.
- m-p-3 7y ago
  It's a good migration path, where they'll eventually be able to fully deprecate Trident.
  - gsnedders 7y ago
    I expect Trident is a very long way from being killed, if it ever is. I expect it'll remain around for much the same reason as many of the old Windows APIs have.

duxup 7y ago

I'm fortunate enough to be in the B2B where our customers are generally less tech inclined so we can actually say "You really shouldn't use IE, download this." and they actually do it. And our customers customer's are even less technically inclined, and they do it too. Some even come back with feedback "Hey this other stuff works now!" I like to think we're helping make the world a better place ;) Granted while the leverage is nice, supporting those customers can be a bear.

websitescenes 7y ago
I have exactly the opposite experience with B2B. We’re working with financial institutions and large dealers and what they use is typically white listed and controlled by an IT department. Typically, they can’t just change and use whatever they want. You must be talking about small businesses?
- KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
  > I'm fortunate enough to be in the B2B where our customers are generally less tech inclined
- duxup 7y ago
  Some are small. Having said that some are pretty well known large companies, but the business units that sort of operate on their own if only due to their archaic nature. The company has a policy, it just doesn't always apply to them. Logistics is a weird industry ;)
  - websitescenes 7y ago
    I always found logistics interesting. Moving stuff around efficiently seems to be a real art. Many opportunities to use data. We use a few different logistics companies and I kick around the idea of bringing it in house sometimes.
    - duxup 7y ago

chatmasta 7y ago

Doesn’t Microsoft advise against using IE11 because of security reasons, except for critical internal applications that only support IE11? [0] It’s mind blowing to me that companies continue to use an insecure browser, to the point of insisting on it. Why can’t vendors refuse to support IE11 on the grounds that it’s a security risk? If you reframe the problem to “IE11 is insecure,” surely customers will adapt? [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-security-chief-ie-is-not-a-browser-so-stop-using-it-as-your-default/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-security-chief-ie-is...

Kye 7y ago
COBOL is still in use 61 years later. Institutional inertia is very much in style. Vendors can't dictate terms to the people paying the bills.
- chatmasta 7y ago
  They can if the software is good enough and the customer really wants it.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - _ZeD_ 7y ago
    not if the ones using the software are not the ones that pay
    - Dangeranger 7y ago
      If you are big enough, and people want to use your software enough, you can dictate what you will support no matter who is paying.[0] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/30/flash-youtube-nostalgia https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/30/flash-you...
    - chatmasta 7y ago
      If you’re losing a sale because your software doesn’t work in IE11, maybe your software isn’t actually all that good. I understand some companies insist on IE11, but companies insist on a lot of “requirements” that aren’t actually necessary if you push back on them. When the rubber hits the road, if your software is truly the best/only option, they can find a way to use a secure browser to access it.

bluedino 7y ago

I had to support IE6 until 2012 because a certain company didn't upgrade their workstations...

wtdo 7y ago
In 2015 I was writing a brand new web frontend for IE 5.5 on a mobile device with something like 240x360 screen dimensions (I forget the details now) for one of the most valuable companies in the world. We had complete control over the devices the users used (the company gave the users those devices). Admittedly, plans were in place to upgrade those devices, but it was still a fair bit out. I left before that happened.

fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago

I work for a relatively large B2B company and we’ve managed to convince the business to drop support for IE11 and Edge (the EdgeHTML rendering engine version). It was just a matter of pointing out the development cost and using analytics to show that very few of our users uses either browser.

duhi88 7y ago
How did you have that conversation? The clients I work for are all still worried about losing business due to dropping IE11...so we don't. They have no analytics on which devices generate income, so it is hard to have that conversation. We know that IE11 hovers around 3% for most of our sites, and I doubt that many of those hits come from legitimate users, let alone someone who is going to purchase something.

wayoutthere 7y ago

My company has a few SaaS apps that really only work in Chrome. I would say Chrome is a more prevalent corporate browser than IE11 at this point. The biggest issue with IE11 from a corporate IT support perspective is that it is not cross-platform so it adds another platform to test and validate against. Most organizations have to support some level of Mac usage for software developers and executives, so it makes more sense to officially support only a single browser.

tln 7y ago

IME, the IE11 users have all been able to use another browser. We send them to version of our site that includes all the right polyfills and allows signups/browsing marketing but NOT using the main app. When users arrive on IE11 and need to use the app they are always able to fire up chrome/Firefox/edge. The only users with an old browser and won't/can't upgrade have had win7 + ancient Firefox.

reaperducer 7y ago
IME, the IE11 users have all been able to use another browser. Then your company must not have any customers in security-conscious industries like healthcare. Any well-run IT department doesn't just allow the company's employees to install and run any old browser they want because a web site told them to do so. I am forced to support IE11 because a very large number of doctors, hospitals, and other healthcare providers use it. These people cannot simply "fire up chrome/Firefox/edge."
- ehutch79 7y ago
  'security conscious' and 'forced to use ie11' do not go together
- TheAceOfHearts 7y ago
  It's not very security-conscious of them to continue using IE11. These healthcare companies are being incredibly irresponsible by continuing to use an insecure and outdated browser; even going against Microsoft's own recommendation in doing so, as I understand it. By supporting IE11 your company is helping to enable the healthcare industry to continue using insecure software. A well-run IT department should be able to provide its users with a modern and secure browser. Why does your definition of a well-run IT department include the requirement that software installations should be restricted, but not a requirement to avoid using insecure and outdated software? I believe one can make a compelling case that the continued use of IE11 within the healthcare industry is unethical, as it provides a known attack vector by which people's data can potentially be stolen. Stop giving them a pass on this.
- propinquity 7y ago

taf2 7y ago

We're mostly a voice application so with WebRTC being a requirement to our application we've completely dropped support for IE11 and Edge (pre chromium) We've had to maintain support for Safari which has been very problematic since they initially released WebRTC support but not exactly bug free. That said it's a joy to develop for the web now without worrying about IE

MisterTea 7y ago

> IE 11 is still supported by Microsoft because it is tied to Windows 10 support. And slow to adopt banks who's check scanner software STILL depends on some ie11 feature. Edge support is coming "soon" which apparently includes the past 3 or 4 years.

marcthe12 7y ago

Personally I feel the correct solution for ie is to have stuff polyfilled and transcompiled by the user. So js libs, you also transcompile the libraries also and provide the polyfills.

leifg 7y ago

Not to mention that if your software sends out emails with links to your application, chances are high that your client's email client (Outlook) will open the links in the default browser (which still might be IE). So even if you can convince them to use a different browser, be prepared to tell them how to configure the browser to be the default one.

bcrosby95 7y ago
That's interesting. Part of why we started supporting IE is because some of our most important users somehow ended up on our website in IE, despite not normally using IE. Wonder if this is the only reason why.
- ehutch79 7y ago
  I bet if you make a popup with instructions on switching the default browser when ie pops up, it'll go down

gentleman11 7y ago

I have been helping maintain and update an online fabric store. If anybody is going to be using ie11, it’s old people with old computers buying fabric for things. I think it’s still 7% of the larger market, no? I don’t see how stores can just ignore 7% of users unfortunately

wpietri 7y ago
It looks like 2-4% of usage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers However, there's a big difference between 4% of users and 4% of market. Not everybody out there is a customer, and not all customers buy equally. So the revenue falloff sill surely be smaller. Typical browser stats also don't account for what people do if something doesn't work. Having browser issues surely will cause some lost sales. But even the least tech-savvy of people will try something on another device, like their phone, or ask somebody to do it for them. Making the revenue impact even smaller.
- gsnedders 7y ago
  Note that all the browser market share data shows a distinct difference between weekday and weekend browser market share: IE has way more market share during the week.

wpietri 7y ago

Since it's open source, it sounds like companies who get 30% of their money from IE users should start giving enough back in time and money that Bootstrap does what they need. That, or look up parables on gift horses and little red hens.

phyzome 7y ago

Also consider: - For some websites (e.g. government) it is important not to "lose" even 1% of the potential userbase -- it's another type of accessibility - For some websites, IE 11 usage will be considerably more than 1% in the first place

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

keithnz 7y ago

It's different for all kinds of of markets, in the markets we deal with (primary industries), our experience is, a lot of IE11 users are users with a lot of $ who have a lot of infrastructure built around older tech. The old tech keeps working fine, which is great in many ways. So, I think unless Microsoft kills it, IE11 is still the minimum for widest adoption. However, for my side projects, I just care about the evergreens.

modmans2nd 7y ago

Imagine a world not too far away where Credge is the only browser accessible and IE tab is available there but doesn’t open unless there’s a flag on a site to say “use IE Tab”