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> no longer seem to advertise their primary mission as education, but as providing the “college experience.” This was already really noticeable when I enrolled

> no longer seem to advertise their primary mission as education, but as providing the “college experience.” This was already really noticeable when I enrolled in undergrad 12 years ago at a large public university. I think part of it has been driven by student demand for more parental oversight, but I also think the marketing is what got so many students to take out debt in the first place. So many of my undergrad classmates (perhaps even a slim majority) believed that undergrad was going to be the best 4 years of their lives and they had to make the most of them, which I personally found completely insane. I also think that the financial system around universities warped in such a way that it became easier to establish direct relationships with parents as university became less affordable to those trying to work while studying. Not to mention the absurd amount of money and effort that universities put into alumni communications to drive giving back to the school.

aikinai 7y ago
I think it is the best four years of life for many (maybe most?) Americans at least. But I think that speaks to exactly what people are saying in this thread. It's not about education anymore, it's evolved into a four-year time-of-your-life experience that through a fluke of history gets supported by guaranteed loans.
- ludamad 7y ago
  Yes unfortunately. It is that time when everyone I know had free time and money. The lucky of us got good jobs, the others debt
- jackpirate 7y ago
  I think it is the best four years of life for many (maybe most?) Americans at least This cannot be true as most Americans do not go to college. Of those that do, most do not do it the "traditional" timeframe of 4 contiguous years after high school. For example, only 36% of 25-30 year olds have a college degree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_...
  - caseysoftware 7y ago
    You're right, it's not true. It's just great marketing through university's marketing departments, the media, etc.
  - russell_h 7y ago
    That statistic only reflects students who graduated and doesn't support your claim that "most Americans do not go to college". It appears that claim is wrong: "In October 2018, 69% of 16- to 24-year-olds who graduated high school in 2018 were enrolled, with 9 out of 10 reporting they were full-time students – a marginal increase over 2017 high school graduates, 67% of whom were enrolled in college or university. Over the last decade, that figure has fluctuated between 66% and 70%." https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2019-04-25/college-enrollment-stays-flat-at-69-continuing-a-decade-long-trend https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2019-04-... It is probably worth recognizing that for students who go to college for the experience there is little incentive to graduate.
- chrstphrhrt 7y ago
  It should be completely free for everyone but regulated to jettison all that non-education stuff (except for some "soft" services like healthcare, therapy/counselling etc). The soft services should be 100% controlled by student unions so as not to be pillaged by rent-seeking vultures. Then there can be a whole economy for luxury experiences for those who want it, but it should be firewalled off from everything essential. It's analogous to money in politics or insider trading as far as conflicts of interest go. I guess it would help if education was enshrined in our constitutions as a human right, which institutions had fiduciary duties to uphold.
  - Melting_Harps 7y ago
    > It should be completely free for everyone but regulated to jettison all that non-education stuff (except for some "soft" services like healthcare, therapy/counselling etc). What do you think made the CSU/UC system the most affordable and attractive option in the Country? The thing you need to accept is that the unfettered administrative bloat was by design, and will always lead to this; the CSU/UC system was essentially tuition-free if you were local and extremely low cost for most of its History because it didn't offer what the others did and we Californians funded that with extremely high local/state/property taxes and our family and by extension our economies were rewarded for it, so we put up with. It wasn't until the bureaucrats made Industry impose a mandatory University degree for most entry-level jobs well into the 90s that many of those same people migrated to academia and start to shift it to the sordid mess you see today. Honestly, I say keep in place: let it fall into disrepute crippled by its own malaise once and for all but have legislation in place that it cannot be bailed out when it does. Its the only way I think this has any chance of reform. Personally, one of the silver linings of the Shutdown in California is showing just how much unnecessary bloat their is in Universities (and in Industry) to deliver on its MVP: accredited completion of courses to issue degrees. If this doesn't disrupt academia and make it shift to a having mainly an online-learning direction for most of its programs then it should rightfully walk into its own demise. I just registered for a bunch of Coresera and Udemy courses on ML, Sustainability and Supply Chain analytics with accreditation from Industry and University alike for what amounts to what cost less than what I paid for 1 or maybe 2 textbooks while I was in University--that I can complete at my own pace on my terms. If the goal was to foster an environment for those with the drive to acquire useful skills, then I'd say we already have evolved past the archaic University system and are only forced to be burdened by it solely because of convention. Apprenticeships are pretty much the backbone of the Germanic countries' Economic and Industrial might, and University is pretty much just an affectation or continued learning component; we need to learn that lesson considering just how much of the US 'education system' is based on Prussian Pedagogy and Ideology.
- Melting_Harps 7y ago
  > I think it is the best four years of life for many (maybe most?) Americans at least. I think that is the most disheartening thing of all that its become such an accepted and prevalent narrative; from Junior year of High School to to my Junior year of undergrad I had my own business(es), and was involved in professional motorsports (University was always my 'Plan B' if it all went wrong) in some capacity. My Life was way more fun (albeit stressful and exhausting) outside of University, and almost never within it; I was there to do one thing and one thing only: graduate, and network with professors for lab positions and training to expedite my career as a Clinical Laboratory Scientist. Nothing else mattered to me that took place at school, it was a drain on what I deemed my 'real life,' so I knew I was an anomaly going into this system as Freshman enrollment and orientation had made it clear to me what I had gotten into. I went to one of the more 'renown' party schools in the US for my upper divisions so I often had embarrassing encounters when turning down persistent invitations to events and parties at school, some possibly even being useful networking events--I mean if you have ever been to an official Red Bull party at an Industry event with an open bar, catering and entertainment and insiders to network and make deals was always going to make some kegger on campus seem monotonous. Especially if you're there while under 21, as it leaves an impression to say the least. But, I did notice how prevalent the Health Sciences, which were often really impacted majors at that school, were geared toward admitting non-Californian students, and would bend backwards for International students. During the good times of the bubble era, I saw it for what it was and didn't mind really it: I was quite open to the cosmopolitan student body. But it became crystallized how gravely insidious it had become as we started to head into the recession and especially within it as catering to International students was a priority; limited class and lab sections were a common occurrence as the CSU/UC system got hit hard with budget cuts and furloughs, strikes etc... This all meant that placating to the International students was an even higher priority as so much funding depended on doing so, as keeping them content and within the system was far more profitable than having local students (Californian students) graduate on time who pay 1/7 of the tuition and probably don't participate as much on 'campus life' as they have family and friends outside of it. I saw time and again as departments were pulling class/lab seats but were filled with predominately International Chinese students in the upper divisions as we had to petition to enter them, and exclusive elective courses: this isn't racist profiling just an observation, my great-grandmother is from Guangzhou, just so its clear. I still remember my Organic Chemistry lecture that had 100+ seats available, and we were all sitting on the floor, isles, and their were students out the doors trying to petition for a seat. It's embarrassing to recall what it felt like I remember someone from administration coming irate at the fire hazard that it created and her solution being: encouraging those that had 'flexibility in their schedule' to go off campus to the CU 30 miles away and would be admitted (at an undisclosed a higher fee) as the first bailout in 2007 was being proposed that fall semester. All of this left such a horribly bitter taste in my mouth, I saw the same thing happen with the Korean students at the University where I started where my family still lived and it was a crazy transition. Every time I went to visit there were more Mercedes, BMW, Audi and as the Korean luxury brands got more prevalent Genesis and big Hyundai cars all over that campus as I rode my bike around. CU Boulder looks like that from the outside, and I'm told from a friend that recently graduated with a BS in Genetics it was the same; he's a local but his freshman year dorm roommate was some Saudi prince's son. I tuned out to the stories he'd say, but the it was practically the same. So, with that in mind its not surprise to me to see articles like this being common place and finally confirming it, its a big part of what made me lose all value in academia, despite knowing several amazing professors and post docs within. Its realized it was such a rigged system that I had to put scruples and often times dignity off the table to accomplish my goals in a reasonable time frame; this led to a very interesting conversations with an International student in Lichtenstein that led to a collaborative study network I created among my peers. This article with the USC admissions is also worth a read, as the Admission's officer was profiting from Chinese student admission fraud: https://laist.com/2020/04/02/usc-cheating-ex-admissions-officer-chinese-nationals.php https://laist.com/2020/04/02/usc-cheating-ex-admissions-offi...
burntoutfire 7y ago
> So many of my undergrad classmates (perhaps even a slim majority) believed that undergrad was going to be the best 4 years of their lives and they had to make the most of them, which I personally found completely insane. For people who don't neccessarily like working (i.e. for most people), school and college are usually the best times of lifes. It's just that it's hard to appreciate that when you have no point of reference. My parents and aunt had this wisdom and, while I was a child, told me "enjoy yourself now, because it will be all downhill from here".
- jes5199 7y ago
  I fucking hate schoolwork though, it always made me significantly more miserable than job-work ever did
  - burntoutfire 7y ago
    For me it wasn't nearly as bad. For one thing, there was so much less schoolwork than job-work. And, while in school, you never had to pretend to the other children that you cared. Also, in school, there weren't many layers of management, product owners etc. all giving unclear and contradictory directions - schoolwork was downright trivial compared to a serious project in a large corp. And this is all coming from a privileged software worker - my family members (the ones saying that childhood and adolescence are the best) were all semi-skilled manual workers. In their cases, I just don't see how sitting at your desk 40 hours a week doing the same thing (say, routine testing methane analysers) over and over again for 40 years, while worrying about making ends meet or being fired, can be better than some school work and oceans of free time.
  - ThrowAway1Day 7y ago
    I preferred school work. I could fuck up a few times and not be expelled. Fuck up once at a job, and you're fired, no severance, no anything. At my last job (hopefully my LAST job) I was fired for the crime of questioning the validity of using work in progress Pull Requests as a KPI. I was fired on a Thursday, and I did not get paid for Friday. (Name and shame: Cloudpassage.com. A failing company). School was better. You don't become homeless if you get a D

aikinai 7y ago

I think it is the best four years of life for many (maybe most?) Americans at least. But I think that speaks to exactly what people are saying in this thread. It's not about education anymore, it's evolved into a four-year time-of-your-life experience that through a fluke of history gets supported by guaranteed loans.

ludamad 7y ago
Yes unfortunately. It is that time when everyone I know had free time and money. The lucky of us got good jobs, the others debt
jackpirate 7y ago
I think it is the best four years of life for many (maybe most?) Americans at least This cannot be true as most Americans do not go to college. Of those that do, most do not do it the "traditional" timeframe of 4 contiguous years after high school. For example, only 36% of 25-30 year olds have a college degree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_...
- caseysoftware 7y ago
  You're right, it's not true. It's just great marketing through university's marketing departments, the media, etc.
- russell_h 7y ago
  That statistic only reflects students who graduated and doesn't support your claim that "most Americans do not go to college". It appears that claim is wrong: "In October 2018, 69% of 16- to 24-year-olds who graduated high school in 2018 were enrolled, with 9 out of 10 reporting they were full-time students – a marginal increase over 2017 high school graduates, 67% of whom were enrolled in college or university. Over the last decade, that figure has fluctuated between 66% and 70%." https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2019-04-25/college-enrollment-stays-flat-at-69-continuing-a-decade-long-trend https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2019-04-... It is probably worth recognizing that for students who go to college for the experience there is little incentive to graduate.
chrstphrhrt 7y ago
It should be completely free for everyone but regulated to jettison all that non-education stuff (except for some "soft" services like healthcare, therapy/counselling etc). The soft services should be 100% controlled by student unions so as not to be pillaged by rent-seeking vultures. Then there can be a whole economy for luxury experiences for those who want it, but it should be firewalled off from everything essential. It's analogous to money in politics or insider trading as far as conflicts of interest go. I guess it would help if education was enshrined in our constitutions as a human right, which institutions had fiduciary duties to uphold.
- Melting_Harps 7y ago
  > It should be completely free for everyone but regulated to jettison all that non-education stuff (except for some "soft" services like healthcare, therapy/counselling etc). What do you think made the CSU/UC system the most affordable and attractive option in the Country? The thing you need to accept is that the unfettered administrative bloat was by design, and will always lead to this; the CSU/UC system was essentially tuition-free if you were local and extremely low cost for most of its History because it didn't offer what the others did and we Californians funded that with extremely high local/state/property taxes and our family and by extension our economies were rewarded for it, so we put up with. It wasn't until the bureaucrats made Industry impose a mandatory University degree for most entry-level jobs well into the 90s that many of those same people migrated to academia and start to shift it to the sordid mess you see today. Honestly, I say keep in place: let it fall into disrepute crippled by its own malaise once and for all but have legislation in place that it cannot be bailed out when it does. Its the only way I think this has any chance of reform. Personally, one of the silver linings of the Shutdown in California is showing just how much unnecessary bloat their is in Universities (and in Industry) to deliver on its MVP: accredited completion of courses to issue degrees. If this doesn't disrupt academia and make it shift to a having mainly an online-learning direction for most of its programs then it should rightfully walk into its own demise. I just registered for a bunch of Coresera and Udemy courses on ML, Sustainability and Supply Chain analytics with accreditation from Industry and University alike for what amounts to what cost less than what I paid for 1 or maybe 2 textbooks while I was in University--that I can complete at my own pace on my terms. If the goal was to foster an environment for those with the drive to acquire useful skills, then I'd say we already have evolved past the archaic University system and are only forced to be burdened by it solely because of convention. Apprenticeships are pretty much the backbone of the Germanic countries' Economic and Industrial might, and University is pretty much just an affectation or continued learning component; we need to learn that lesson considering just how much of the US 'education system' is based on Prussian Pedagogy and Ideology.
Melting_Harps 7y ago
> I think it is the best four years of life for many (maybe most?) Americans at least. I think that is the most disheartening thing of all that its become such an accepted and prevalent narrative; from Junior year of High School to to my Junior year of undergrad I had my own business(es), and was involved in professional motorsports (University was always my 'Plan B' if it all went wrong) in some capacity. My Life was way more fun (albeit stressful and exhausting) outside of University, and almost never within it; I was there to do one thing and one thing only: graduate, and network with professors for lab positions and training to expedite my career as a Clinical Laboratory Scientist. Nothing else mattered to me that took place at school, it was a drain on what I deemed my 'real life,' so I knew I was an anomaly going into this system as Freshman enrollment and orientation had made it clear to me what I had gotten into. I went to one of the more 'renown' party schools in the US for my upper divisions so I often had embarrassing encounters when turning down persistent invitations to events and parties at school, some possibly even being useful networking events--I mean if you have ever been to an official Red Bull party at an Industry event with an open bar, catering and entertainment and insiders to network and make deals was always going to make some kegger on campus seem monotonous. Especially if you're there while under 21, as it leaves an impression to say the least. But, I did notice how prevalent the Health Sciences, which were often really impacted majors at that school, were geared toward admitting non-Californian students, and would bend backwards for International students. During the good times of the bubble era, I saw it for what it was and didn't mind really it: I was quite open to the cosmopolitan student body. But it became crystallized how gravely insidious it had become as we started to head into the recession and especially within it as catering to International students was a priority; limited class and lab sections were a common occurrence as the CSU/UC system got hit hard with budget cuts and furloughs, strikes etc... This all meant that placating to the International students was an even higher priority as so much funding depended on doing so, as keeping them content and within the system was far more profitable than having local students (Californian students) graduate on time who pay 1/7 of the tuition and probably don't participate as much on 'campus life' as they have family and friends outside of it. I saw time and again as departments were pulling class/lab seats but were filled with predominately International Chinese students in the upper divisions as we had to petition to enter them, and exclusive elective courses: this isn't racist profiling just an observation, my great-grandmother is from Guangzhou, just so its clear. I still remember my Organic Chemistry lecture that had 100+ seats available, and we were all sitting on the floor, isles, and their were students out the doors trying to petition for a seat. It's embarrassing to recall what it felt like I remember someone from administration coming irate at the fire hazard that it created and her solution being: encouraging those that had 'flexibility in their schedule' to go off campus to the CU 30 miles away and would be admitted (at an undisclosed a higher fee) as the first bailout in 2007 was being proposed that fall semester. All of this left such a horribly bitter taste in my mouth, I saw the same thing happen with the Korean students at the University where I started where my family still lived and it was a crazy transition. Every time I went to visit there were more Mercedes, BMW, Audi and as the Korean luxury brands got more prevalent Genesis and big Hyundai cars all over that campus as I rode my bike around. CU Boulder looks like that from the outside, and I'm told from a friend that recently graduated with a BS in Genetics it was the same; he's a local but his freshman year dorm roommate was some Saudi prince's son. I tuned out to the stories he'd say, but the it was practically the same. So, with that in mind its not surprise to me to see articles like this being common place and finally confirming it, its a big part of what made me lose all value in academia, despite knowing several amazing professors and post docs within. Its realized it was such a rigged system that I had to put scruples and often times dignity off the table to accomplish my goals in a reasonable time frame; this led to a very interesting conversations with an International student in Lichtenstein that led to a collaborative study network I created among my peers. This article with the USC admissions is also worth a read, as the Admission's officer was profiting from Chinese student admission fraud: https://laist.com/2020/04/02/usc-cheating-ex-admissions-officer-chinese-nationals.php https://laist.com/2020/04/02/usc-cheating-ex-admissions-offi...

burntoutfire 7y ago

> So many of my undergrad classmates (perhaps even a slim majority) believed that undergrad was going to be the best 4 years of their lives and they had to make the most of them, which I personally found completely insane. For people who don't neccessarily like working (i.e. for most people), school and college are usually the best times of lifes. It's just that it's hard to appreciate that when you have no point of reference. My parents and aunt had this wisdom and, while I was a child, told me "enjoy yourself now, because it will be all downhill from here".

jes5199 7y ago
I fucking hate schoolwork though, it always made me significantly more miserable than job-work ever did
- burntoutfire 7y ago
  For me it wasn't nearly as bad. For one thing, there was so much less schoolwork than job-work. And, while in school, you never had to pretend to the other children that you cared. Also, in school, there weren't many layers of management, product owners etc. all giving unclear and contradictory directions - schoolwork was downright trivial compared to a serious project in a large corp. And this is all coming from a privileged software worker - my family members (the ones saying that childhood and adolescence are the best) were all semi-skilled manual workers. In their cases, I just don't see how sitting at your desk 40 hours a week doing the same thing (say, routine testing methane analysers) over and over again for 40 years, while worrying about making ends meet or being fired, can be better than some school work and oceans of free time.
- ThrowAway1Day 7y ago
  I preferred school work. I could fuck up a few times and not be expelled. Fuck up once at a job, and you're fired, no severance, no anything. At my last job (hopefully my LAST job) I was fired for the crime of questioning the validity of using work in progress Pull Requests as a KPI. I was fired on a Thursday, and I did not get paid for Friday. (Name and shame: Cloudpassage.com. A failing company). School was better. You don't become homeless if you get a D