7 ms·

Universities should not be responsible for both education and assessment. All of this disappears in a moment if those two are separate. But universities would

by sago 7y ago

Universities should not be responsible for both education and assessment. All of this disappears in a moment if those two are separate. But universities would resist that kicking and screaming to high heaven. Because it would not only undermine their 'great institution' claims, but educational routes that aren't universities would trump them (in terms of cost for attainment) in very short order.

foldr 7y ago
>Universities should not be responsible for both education and assessment. Easier said than done. In more niche disciplines, the only people qualified to evaluate student attainment are other academics in the same discipline. At UK universities, grades are routinely reviewed by an "external examiner" from a separate institution. In my experience, the result of this additional scrutiny has usually be to put grades up rather than lower them.
- red_admiral 7y ago
  One of the many metrics that UK universities are assessed on is graduate employability - I think it's something like average salary 3 years after graduation in the latest Teaching Excellence Framework (TEF). Yes, we have a TEF to evaluate us, as well as external examiners and student surveys and other things.
  - foldr 7y ago
    Yes, I know. None of these things seems to have done much to combat grade inflation.
- chithanh 7y ago
  >> Universities should not be responsible for both education and assessment. > Easier said than done. In more niche disciplines, the only people qualified to evaluate student attainment are other academics in the same discipline. It is actually done in quite a few places. And even when there is no non-academic alternative, at the very least the examiners could entirely come from a different university than the lecturers. In Germany there is the concept of "Staatsexamen" where a government-run examination agency recruits examiners from representatives of the profession and academia.
seeTheAstroturf 7y ago
The only thing I can say I learned from Engineering school is math. 4 years of my career completely changed my mind about what Engineering is. I didn't know I would be solving problems. Good that they teach math, but there's a giant disconnect between academia and industry.
- ludamad 7y ago
  In some ways, there is 'good disconnect' if the disconnect is that the academia merely informs your thinking, not your immediate actions. It shows that you learned the fundamentals in an insular environment that doesn't muddle them. If there is full disconnect, that is rough though
  - thisisnico 7y ago
    I Live in the Border city of Windsor to Detroit. We have a University that had been hailed for its engineering program. What I'm hearing from students/employers (big 3) is that the entire program is mostly mathematics, they have no usable engineering skills to begin work in the field because of minimal labs, and methods. Almost no CAD work/design control systems etc. They're so far behind the curve it's like they ignore that computers have automated so much of the math that they are teaching. More community college engineering graduates are getting jobs at the big 3 due to actually obtaining skills needed to do the job through labs and education that's on par with today's engineering.
    - non-entity 7y ago
      > More community college engineering graduates are getting jobs at the big 3 due to actually obtaining skills needed to do the job through labs and education that's on par with today's engineering. How does this work in Canada in regards to professional licensing? In the US, it my understanding that getting an engineering license requires an accredited program and that majority of a reddit programs are 4 year bachelors degrees. Even most master degrees dont have the right accreditation.
      - 7y ago
throwaway32120 7y ago
Very much this. Removing the monopoly universities have on the (fairly questionable) credentials used for employment would go along way toward solving many of these issues. Most of the discussion about the problem with universities seem to dance around the core problem.
- mywittyname 7y ago
  I doubt it's a coincidence that programs which require a third-party qualification exam tend to be more rigorous. E.g., engineering, nursing, medicine, law, etc.
anifow 7y ago
This is not a revolutionary idea. Several professional programs (law, accounting, etc.) have certification exams that do just what you are describing. It seems to require a fairly healthy, non-profit professional body in order for this to work, and you can only ever assess a fairly slim chunk of the 4-year experience, so they end up pairing in a credit-hour requirement as well. I work in large-scale assessment, and can attest that we should hold a fairly skeptical/conservative position in the power of tests to get to the "real" skill level of prospective practitioners. All of the measures currently available are fairly weak at predicting outcomes.

by sago 7y ago

foldr 7y ago

>Universities should not be responsible for both education and assessment. Easier said than done. In more niche disciplines, the only people qualified to evaluate student attainment are other academics in the same discipline. At UK universities, grades are routinely reviewed by an "external examiner" from a separate institution. In my experience, the result of this additional scrutiny has usually be to put grades up rather than lower them.

red_admiral 7y ago
One of the many metrics that UK universities are assessed on is graduate employability - I think it's something like average salary 3 years after graduation in the latest Teaching Excellence Framework (TEF). Yes, we have a TEF to evaluate us, as well as external examiners and student surveys and other things.
- foldr 7y ago
  Yes, I know. None of these things seems to have done much to combat grade inflation.
chithanh 7y ago
>> Universities should not be responsible for both education and assessment. > Easier said than done. In more niche disciplines, the only people qualified to evaluate student attainment are other academics in the same discipline. It is actually done in quite a few places. And even when there is no non-academic alternative, at the very least the examiners could entirely come from a different university than the lecturers. In Germany there is the concept of "Staatsexamen" where a government-run examination agency recruits examiners from representatives of the profession and academia.

seeTheAstroturf 7y ago

The only thing I can say I learned from Engineering school is math. 4 years of my career completely changed my mind about what Engineering is. I didn't know I would be solving problems. Good that they teach math, but there's a giant disconnect between academia and industry.

ludamad 7y ago
In some ways, there is 'good disconnect' if the disconnect is that the academia merely informs your thinking, not your immediate actions. It shows that you learned the fundamentals in an insular environment that doesn't muddle them. If there is full disconnect, that is rough though
- thisisnico 7y ago
  I Live in the Border city of Windsor to Detroit. We have a University that had been hailed for its engineering program. What I'm hearing from students/employers (big 3) is that the entire program is mostly mathematics, they have no usable engineering skills to begin work in the field because of minimal labs, and methods. Almost no CAD work/design control systems etc. They're so far behind the curve it's like they ignore that computers have automated so much of the math that they are teaching. More community college engineering graduates are getting jobs at the big 3 due to actually obtaining skills needed to do the job through labs and education that's on par with today's engineering.
  - non-entity 7y ago
    > More community college engineering graduates are getting jobs at the big 3 due to actually obtaining skills needed to do the job through labs and education that's on par with today's engineering. How does this work in Canada in regards to professional licensing? In the US, it my understanding that getting an engineering license requires an accredited program and that majority of a reddit programs are 4 year bachelors degrees. Even most master degrees dont have the right accreditation.
    - 7y ago

throwaway32120 7y ago

Very much this. Removing the monopoly universities have on the (fairly questionable) credentials used for employment would go along way toward solving many of these issues. Most of the discussion about the problem with universities seem to dance around the core problem.

mywittyname 7y ago
I doubt it's a coincidence that programs which require a third-party qualification exam tend to be more rigorous. E.g., engineering, nursing, medicine, law, etc.

anifow 7y ago

This is not a revolutionary idea. Several professional programs (law, accounting, etc.) have certification exams that do just what you are describing. It seems to require a fairly healthy, non-profit professional body in order for this to work, and you can only ever assess a fairly slim chunk of the 4-year experience, so they end up pairing in a credit-hour requirement as well. I work in large-scale assessment, and can attest that we should hold a fairly skeptical/conservative position in the power of tests to get to the "real" skill level of prospective practitioners. All of the measures currently available are fairly weak at predicting outcomes.