10 ms·

As a European, reading these articles on arbitration, no-compete, required licenses, 'right-to-work', tipping, "gig work", firing over zoom, and so much more, i

As a European, reading these articles on arbitration, no-compete, required licenses, 'right-to-work', tipping, "gig work", firing over zoom, and so much more, it seems U.S. workers could really use some collective bargaining? Here unions are the obvious century-old solution to improve working conditions, why don't workers organize there? Are we just lucky here, like with universal health care?

saagarjha 7y ago
Many people don't like unions, and most companies heavily discourage their employees from joining one.
- hcknwscommenter 7y ago
  In particular, many working class people who would benefit from strong unions are opposed to unions, or even if they are not opposed do not consider how their voting patterns/choices affect union viability.
Gatsky 7y ago
Yes exactly. Perhaps the pandemic will change this, but probably not.
Mirioron 7y ago
>Are we just lucky here, like with universal health care? You don't hear as much about European problems online, because they're spoken about in the respective nation's language. This means that it's hard to compare. Most European countries also have many problems like the US. Maybe not to quite the same extreme, but they do exist. The US does have a few things going for it though: very strong protections of speech, very high wages, a system of incredible services - things like Amazon, FedEx etc. From my perspective, things in the US actually seem better than in Europe for the long-term. They just have a few very obvious pain points like healthcare and the silliness of a lack of worker protections in some states. Just keep in mind that unions aren't universal across Europe or even the EU. They usually exist, but they tend to not have much leverage.
- kenned3 7y ago
  "a very strong protections of speech" I grew up in Canada, then moved to the US for 5 years before returning home to Canada. It always killed me when my US coworkers said teh same thing about "free speech" as i watched censored TV shows in the US which are not that way back in Canada. I think "free speech" on the US side is highly overrarted and if you look into it more seriously you will find many nations which are at least at the US level. Some higher, like Canada, which doesnt have the "7 words you cant say on TV" restriction.
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    Misread your comment as “7 letter words you can’t say on TV”. I’ve spent way too long looking for offensive 7 letter words. It seems that for a word to be truely offensive it is usually very short.
    - cperciva 7y ago
      A term used in reference to African Americans comes to mind, although maybe it's stretching to count the plural of an offensive 6 letter word.
    - hermitdev 7y ago
      "7 words you can't say on TV" was a great George Carlin standup special.
  - phd514 7y ago
    The FCC has obscenity regulations for broadcast TV in the US under the idea that the broadcast spectrum is owned by the people. Cable television has no such restrictions. That rationale holds up a lot less now than it did in the early days of broadcast television, but it's still a far cry from Canadian hate speech laws in which the expression of certain points of view is deemed a crime.
    - jpdb 7y ago
      > a far cry from Canadian hate speech laws in which the expression of certain points of view is deemed a crime. Can you link to these laws? Because if you're talking about bill C-16, it's very clear that it isn't making it a crime to express certain beliefs, it's making it illegal to discriminate based on gender or gender identity. Just as the US does with regards to certain traits (such as color, religion, marital status, etc)
gumby 7y ago
Unions have suffered from a bad reputation in the United States over the past few decades. Some of it is deserved BTW; some big unions were/are corrupted and some were connected with organized crime. Even more innocently, unions have been quite conservative; as jobs and technology changed some were very resistant and fought modernization (requiring people who were not needed to be around). But a lot of it also stems from corporate resistance to unionization and the high regard in which ordinary people hold the opinions of corporate managers in the USA. All that being said, unions have been very good for labor, and when I've worked in union shops (not in a unionized role) they've been really great in terms of qualified people and high quality work. I built my house using union labor and I'm glad I did. Europe is not immune to these diseases by the way. Certain French unions certainly negotiate against the greater interests of society. And in Germany my non-unionized brother in law (a mechanical engineer) was not allowed to work late at VW -- he was trying to finish a project one evening and a union guy came by and cut his PC's power cable while he was designing a part.
- wegs 7y ago
  Most of the bad reputation is deserved. Most US unions are horrible organizations. There are still some good unions, just not many. That doesn't make the concept of a union bad. They worked much better 50 years ago, even. It's a great concept, but the implementation got corrupted over the years. I don't think we'll fix unions' reputations without first fixing unions. And we really need more unions and more credible unions. As a footnote, in my local school district, under coronavirus school closures, the teacher's union negotiated that the teachers get paid, but they don't need to remotely teach students. Some teachers continue teaching for some amount of time, but essentially on a volunteer basis. Many teachers are just sitting at home, doing nothing except for collecting a pay check.
  - tssva 7y ago
    Are you sure it was the union which forced the district not to remote teach? I live in an area where teachers are not unionized and the teachers are still getting paid and not teaching. The school district has signed contracts with the teachers which doesn't have any terms which stop payment because the schools close during the year and the district is not requiring remote learning because of equal access issues.
dmitrygr 7y ago
because of shit like this: https://www.post-gazette.com/uncategorized/2006/03/31/Philly-plumbers-union-pipes-up-about-skycraper-s-waterless-urinals/stories/200603310189 https://www.post-gazette.com/uncategorized/2006/03/31/Philly...
cosmodisk 7y ago
Not sure why you got downvoted for simply raising valid questions,but here we are. I am a European as well,lived in 4 different countries in Europe and they were all so much different. Americans could have whatever they want, including free higher education, healthcare and strong employment laws.The country is rich enough to be able to support it. However, the culture of the country is different and that culture right now doesn't want all those things for one reason or another. Some are because of lack of education or simply experience,some are purely ideological,while others have some logical and educated opinions on why it shouldn't be the case. Unless there's a dramatic shift in opinions,for one reason or another, these things won't happen. A very good example of this is the tipping system: the restaurant owners love it because they don't need to pay for it.The clients kind of like it because they do feel in charge and they 'reward' waiter for the service they believe was worthwhile. The waiter thinks he's doing great because his base salary is so piss poor that any extra coin or note look like a lottery ticket.So all the stakeholders are happy. You could even make career out of it,if you are really good at it.In most European countries, waiter's job is usually something a student does or someone who doesn't have any other options. The job is seen as something anyone could do with 5 min trainin. There's no aspiration to become a really really good waiter,who understands when to approach a customer,when ask when not to ask and all the hidden and subtle signs customers make during the evening. And the job usually doesn't pay that much,unless there's tipping involved ( it varies a lot between European countries). Which one is better?
- Reelin 7y ago
  > A very good example of this is the tipping system ... So all the stakeholders are happy. As a recent example in my state, a local establishment raised wages, raised prices, and strictly disallowed tips. I thought it was a great idea, but apparently sales fell and there were complaints from both wait staff and customers. They promptly switched back. > Which one is better? Honestly? The European one IMO because it actively prevents the exploitation of workers.
  - mulmen 7y ago
    Some people do not tip at all so I am sure they were unhappy about the higher prices. Did the restaurant raise wages at or above the level their top employee was earning with tips? If it was a cent less than that i can understand why employees were unhappy. There is immense cultural momentum behind tipping culture. Where I live it is common to have a 15+% gratuity added to the tab automatically and then an optional extra tip that goes to the full staff. This seems to be a reasonable compromise.
gbronner 7y ago
The US has a very flexible labor market that allows for easy entry and exit, but can appear (and be) ruthless in its drive for efficiency. Europe is great for workers who get lucky enough to get a contract (French unemployment is often 2-3x US unemployment), don't want to leave, and don't want to be rich. Average US GDP per capita is 35% higher than France and Britain, despite having large numbers of poorly educated immigrants. Furthermore, tax rates are much lower in the US than in Europe, so people can actually consume quite a bit more.
barry-cotter 7y ago
Americans are much richer than Europeans so this doesn’t seem like an obvious choice. As of 2011 the UK and France were poorer than all but two US states, Germany poorer than all but six[1]. That understates how much richer the US is. Look at average household consumption [2]. The US, 5% of the human race, is behind Hong Kong, a city state and almost $10,000 ahead of Switzerland. Average individual consumption would probably show the US as number 1 given bigger households than either Hong Kong or Switzerland. And as far as working conditions go in the US it’s generally actually possible to get a job. All of Southern Europe and most of Northern Europe have higher unemployment than the US and has for decades. [1] https://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/06/americas-economic-success-vs-europe.html?m=1 https://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/06/americas-economic-succe... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household_final_consumption_expenditure_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_househo...
fzeroracer 7y ago
Unfortunately there's a lot of FUD over unions here and how they ruin things, employ lazy workers, are corrupt etc and therefore don't deserve to exist. Of course the great irony is all of the arguments against unions also applies directly to corporations, yet those same people that are against unions don't really like to talk about the idea of abolishing corporations. Usually those arguments turn into 'one bad apple' or 'they'll be out-competed' or something about the free market, never mind that unions operate on the same free market principle as corporations.
- smabie 7y ago
  Not exactly.. https://www.edweek.org/ew/collections/janus-supreme-court-unions/index.html https://www.edweek.org/ew/collections/janus-supreme-court-un...
smabie 7y ago
You're not that lucky, I can literally make 5x more in the US as a software engineer than in Europe.

saagarjha 7y ago

Many people don't like unions, and most companies heavily discourage their employees from joining one.

hcknwscommenter 7y ago
In particular, many working class people who would benefit from strong unions are opposed to unions, or even if they are not opposed do not consider how their voting patterns/choices affect union viability.

Gatsky 7y ago

Yes exactly. Perhaps the pandemic will change this, but probably not.

Mirioron 7y ago

>Are we just lucky here, like with universal health care? You don't hear as much about European problems online, because they're spoken about in the respective nation's language. This means that it's hard to compare. Most European countries also have many problems like the US. Maybe not to quite the same extreme, but they do exist. The US does have a few things going for it though: very strong protections of speech, very high wages, a system of incredible services - things like Amazon, FedEx etc. From my perspective, things in the US actually seem better than in Europe for the long-term. They just have a few very obvious pain points like healthcare and the silliness of a lack of worker protections in some states. Just keep in mind that unions aren't universal across Europe or even the EU. They usually exist, but they tend to not have much leverage.

kenned3 7y ago
"a very strong protections of speech" I grew up in Canada, then moved to the US for 5 years before returning home to Canada. It always killed me when my US coworkers said teh same thing about "free speech" as i watched censored TV shows in the US which are not that way back in Canada. I think "free speech" on the US side is highly overrarted and if you look into it more seriously you will find many nations which are at least at the US level. Some higher, like Canada, which doesnt have the "7 words you cant say on TV" restriction.
- lostlogin 7y ago
  Misread your comment as “7 letter words you can’t say on TV”. I’ve spent way too long looking for offensive 7 letter words. It seems that for a word to be truely offensive it is usually very short.
  - cperciva 7y ago
    A term used in reference to African Americans comes to mind, although maybe it's stretching to count the plural of an offensive 6 letter word.
  - hermitdev 7y ago
    "7 words you can't say on TV" was a great George Carlin standup special.
- phd514 7y ago
  The FCC has obscenity regulations for broadcast TV in the US under the idea that the broadcast spectrum is owned by the people. Cable television has no such restrictions. That rationale holds up a lot less now than it did in the early days of broadcast television, but it's still a far cry from Canadian hate speech laws in which the expression of certain points of view is deemed a crime.
  - jpdb 7y ago
    > a far cry from Canadian hate speech laws in which the expression of certain points of view is deemed a crime. Can you link to these laws? Because if you're talking about bill C-16, it's very clear that it isn't making it a crime to express certain beliefs, it's making it illegal to discriminate based on gender or gender identity. Just as the US does with regards to certain traits (such as color, religion, marital status, etc)

gumby 7y ago

Unions have suffered from a bad reputation in the United States over the past few decades. Some of it is deserved BTW; some big unions were/are corrupted and some were connected with organized crime. Even more innocently, unions have been quite conservative; as jobs and technology changed some were very resistant and fought modernization (requiring people who were not needed to be around). But a lot of it also stems from corporate resistance to unionization and the high regard in which ordinary people hold the opinions of corporate managers in the USA. All that being said, unions have been very good for labor, and when I've worked in union shops (not in a unionized role) they've been really great in terms of qualified people and high quality work. I built my house using union labor and I'm glad I did. Europe is not immune to these diseases by the way. Certain French unions certainly negotiate against the greater interests of society. And in Germany my non-unionized brother in law (a mechanical engineer) was not allowed to work late at VW -- he was trying to finish a project one evening and a union guy came by and cut his PC's power cable while he was designing a part.

wegs 7y ago
Most of the bad reputation is deserved. Most US unions are horrible organizations. There are still some good unions, just not many. That doesn't make the concept of a union bad. They worked much better 50 years ago, even. It's a great concept, but the implementation got corrupted over the years. I don't think we'll fix unions' reputations without first fixing unions. And we really need more unions and more credible unions. As a footnote, in my local school district, under coronavirus school closures, the teacher's union negotiated that the teachers get paid, but they don't need to remotely teach students. Some teachers continue teaching for some amount of time, but essentially on a volunteer basis. Many teachers are just sitting at home, doing nothing except for collecting a pay check.
- tssva 7y ago
  Are you sure it was the union which forced the district not to remote teach? I live in an area where teachers are not unionized and the teachers are still getting paid and not teaching. The school district has signed contracts with the teachers which doesn't have any terms which stop payment because the schools close during the year and the district is not requiring remote learning because of equal access issues.

dmitrygr 7y ago

because of shit like this: https://www.post-gazette.com/uncategorized/2006/03/31/Philly-plumbers-union-pipes-up-about-skycraper-s-waterless-urinals/stories/200603310189 https://www.post-gazette.com/uncategorized/2006/03/31/Philly...

cosmodisk 7y ago

Not sure why you got downvoted for simply raising valid questions,but here we are. I am a European as well,lived in 4 different countries in Europe and they were all so much different. Americans could have whatever they want, including free higher education, healthcare and strong employment laws.The country is rich enough to be able to support it. However, the culture of the country is different and that culture right now doesn't want all those things for one reason or another. Some are because of lack of education or simply experience,some are purely ideological,while others have some logical and educated opinions on why it shouldn't be the case. Unless there's a dramatic shift in opinions,for one reason or another, these things won't happen. A very good example of this is the tipping system: the restaurant owners love it because they don't need to pay for it.The clients kind of like it because they do feel in charge and they 'reward' waiter for the service they believe was worthwhile. The waiter thinks he's doing great because his base salary is so piss poor that any extra coin or note look like a lottery ticket.So all the stakeholders are happy. You could even make career out of it,if you are really good at it.In most European countries, waiter's job is usually something a student does or someone who doesn't have any other options. The job is seen as something anyone could do with 5 min trainin. There's no aspiration to become a really really good waiter,who understands when to approach a customer,when ask when not to ask and all the hidden and subtle signs customers make during the evening. And the job usually doesn't pay that much,unless there's tipping involved ( it varies a lot between European countries). Which one is better?

Reelin 7y ago
> A very good example of this is the tipping system ... So all the stakeholders are happy. As a recent example in my state, a local establishment raised wages, raised prices, and strictly disallowed tips. I thought it was a great idea, but apparently sales fell and there were complaints from both wait staff and customers. They promptly switched back. > Which one is better? Honestly? The European one IMO because it actively prevents the exploitation of workers.
- mulmen 7y ago
  Some people do not tip at all so I am sure they were unhappy about the higher prices. Did the restaurant raise wages at or above the level their top employee was earning with tips? If it was a cent less than that i can understand why employees were unhappy. There is immense cultural momentum behind tipping culture. Where I live it is common to have a 15+% gratuity added to the tab automatically and then an optional extra tip that goes to the full staff. This seems to be a reasonable compromise.

gbronner 7y ago

The US has a very flexible labor market that allows for easy entry and exit, but can appear (and be) ruthless in its drive for efficiency. Europe is great for workers who get lucky enough to get a contract (French unemployment is often 2-3x US unemployment), don't want to leave, and don't want to be rich. Average US GDP per capita is 35% higher than France and Britain, despite having large numbers of poorly educated immigrants. Furthermore, tax rates are much lower in the US than in Europe, so people can actually consume quite a bit more.

barry-cotter 7y ago

Americans are much richer than Europeans so this doesn’t seem like an obvious choice. As of 2011 the UK and France were poorer than all but two US states, Germany poorer than all but six[1]. That understates how much richer the US is. Look at average household consumption [2]. The US, 5% of the human race, is behind Hong Kong, a city state and almost $10,000 ahead of Switzerland. Average individual consumption would probably show the US as number 1 given bigger households than either Hong Kong or Switzerland. And as far as working conditions go in the US it’s generally actually possible to get a job. All of Southern Europe and most of Northern Europe have higher unemployment than the US and has for decades. [1] https://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/06/americas-economic-success-vs-europe.html?m=1 https://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/06/americas-economic-succe... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household_final_consumption_expenditure_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_househo...

fzeroracer 7y ago

Unfortunately there's a lot of FUD over unions here and how they ruin things, employ lazy workers, are corrupt etc and therefore don't deserve to exist. Of course the great irony is all of the arguments against unions also applies directly to corporations, yet those same people that are against unions don't really like to talk about the idea of abolishing corporations. Usually those arguments turn into 'one bad apple' or 'they'll be out-competed' or something about the free market, never mind that unions operate on the same free market principle as corporations.

smabie 7y ago
Not exactly.. https://www.edweek.org/ew/collections/janus-supreme-court-unions/index.html https://www.edweek.org/ew/collections/janus-supreme-court-un...

smabie 7y ago

You're not that lucky, I can literally make 5x more in the US as a software engineer than in Europe.