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Back in college I used to love Foursquare (about 9 years ago). It was fun, lightweight, addicting (competing to be 'mayor' of my apartment building). Actually I

Back in college I used to love Foursquare (about 9 years ago). It was fun, lightweight, addicting (competing to be 'mayor' of my apartment building). Actually I feel like all social media was fun back then. When they split off the actual fun part into it's own app, I knew the fun was just dead. Sure Swarm was more polished, but I didn't really understand why would I move out to another app to do what I was already doing in the Foursquare app. I think a better product owner could have kept it unified somehow. But alas, Foursquare simply had no way of making money. The often quoted 'How Not to Die' by pg seems especially relevant to foursquare. Compare the company they started out as, to the company they are now. They may not have 'died', but they sure as hell aren't the same company, product, or userbase. They figured how to not die by pulling a Ship of Theseus, replacing fun with features, features with ads, replacing ads with 'tools'. Is there a way for social media to stay fun and profitable? I guess Instagram is probably the closest thing to staying fun, though for some reason I never latched on to Instagram. Perhaps it's focus on vanity never really resonated with me. When I think of goofy fun, I don't think of Instagram - Instagram is for the beautiful and that's not what I think of myself as. Reading the line 'Foursquare is No. 1 when it comes to attribution and ad effectiveness, when it comes to app developer tools' is so the opposite of what I considered Foursquare to be when I used it.

arkanciscan 7y ago
As a long time Foursquare user who switched to Swarm I can say it's still the same FourSquare it always was. It's just as "fun" as it ever was. It's awkward to have two apps on my phone and I hate that product decision too, but it's better than them killing off the check-in feature altogether. That's what Google would have done.
- jkestner 7y ago
  I never used the original app, but use the new FourSquare for discovering food after Yelp grew increasingly anti-user (both consumers and businesses). Makes me cynically wonder how FourSquare is screwing us over.
  - covercash 7y ago
    For a while now, friends and family have been relying on me for restaurant recommendations whenever they travel. Foursquare is my starting place and I then use Infatuation and Yelp written reviews (not their star ratings) to narrow things down.
- sneak 7y ago
  That is precisely what Google did do the first time they bought them, as Dodgeball.
- mastre_ 7y ago
  There are almost no badges in the new app, useless coins (at least if you could upgrade your badges with them as back in the day).. I fail to see how it's the same "fun" as it ever was. I have a few friends that still use it religiously, one day I plan on thinking deeply about what these people have in common because on the surface they seem rather random -- some are technologists, some aren't; all of them are 30+. I think there is a _lot_ to be done in the field. As with anything these days it would most likely require a large effort with sizable investment, but I think it's an area that's grossly overlooked.
  - dionidium 7y ago
    > one day I plan on thinking deeply about what these people have in common because on the surface they seem rather random -- some are technologists, some aren't I've had the same thought. I'm a software engineer in my 30s and I still use it religiously. I have a few friends who still use it, too. They are a high school teacher in his 30s, a project manager in her 30s, an attorney in her 40s, and an audio engineer in his 30s.
    - mastre_ 7y ago
      Isn't that weird? My group is similarly all over the map like that. One of my friends has been traveling the world non-stop for years now, it's interesting to see all of the places he's been to (although now he's been to most countries multiple times). I'm into software too; a couple of my friends who use it are too, but some of the others aren't.
      - arkanciscan 7y ago
        I follow a couple people who seem to check-in compulsively despite never doing anything very interesting. Like busstops and gas stations. Some of them even check into their own houses on the reg. I think some of them may be using automated check-in tools.
  - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
    I still use it and I'm well over 30. I can't speak to your friends, but I like the history of where I've been. I love driving and finding new places -- at least, back when things were open, remember when there were cafés and stuff? -- and, on the flip side, I (used to) go out to eat for most meals and could fall into regular patterns, and sometimes checking Swarm to remind me that, yes, I had been to such-and-such place twice already this month could kick me into trying something new. Making the coins utterly useless irritates me, though, and I'm kind of surprised they dropped the whole notion of partnering with businesses to offer specials to regular customers they had in the pre-Swarm days. While I presume they pivoted into selling location data because the partnerships just didn't make them enough money, I'd hope the partnerships weren't losing them money, and I think they really drove usage.
fernandopj 7y ago
> But alas, Foursquare simply had no way of making money. Their revenue is 100 MM/year. [1] You may not (like me) like their pivot then, or business focus, but they do run a successful business. [1] https://www.owler.com/company/foursquare https://www.owler.com/company/foursquare
- mangoman 7y ago
  Sorry, I was referring to the OG check-in app. They definitely make money now, but are they really foursquare anymore?
ramraj07 7y ago
If you look at their data offerings it's downright creepy to put it mildly. They offer services where they can ping store owners when someone enters their store! I'd trust Google before I trust a company like Yelp or foursquare.
- wyxuan 7y ago
  Four square works with other apps to do the tracking, so it's almost inevitable that you'll be tracked.
  - alwayseasy 7y ago
    Especially since they have data on the entire Uber user base.
meerita 7y ago
I had the same experience. I was truly hooked with 4sq app, documenting all the places i've been, getting mayors, badges, etc. After they made that side app, everything was ok, it made me quit using 4sq right away.
- Ayesh 7y ago
  Gamification with locations can go a long way. Pre-Swamp 4sq, Pokemon Go, and even Google Maps Timeline is addicting. I try to de-Google myself a lot, but at the same time, I find myself perfecting my Google maps timeline so I know the places I've already been to.
  - meerita 7y ago
    It's amazing many of these cool ideas died in favor of datamining and profits. I wonder what lead them to do these changes. I've read stories of people traveling in buses to diferent locations in USA just to check-in. I wish I had that strong community.
naravara 7y ago
I kind of wish I had a better idea about the finances for a lot of these applications. Back in the "fun" days part of the reason they were fun was because they didn't need to worry about making money. As they started to try and bring in modes of revenue extraction, they started to feel more user hostile (either in terms of gates and paywalls, excessive ads, or really creepy levels of data harvesting). But I'm curious if another path was ever available. My gut feeling is that many (not all) of these products probably had perfectly serviceable business models available to them if they were content to just be a fairly unsexy utility with low margins. But the focus on establishing a platform monopoly and/or being a billion dollar unicorn has pushed them all towards these societally maladaptive ways approaches that kind of put people off the whole thing. I don't have the numbers to back any of that up, though, and I'm not sure anyone does aside from the VC people. But they, understandably, have no incentive to let someone stay in the 7 or 8-figure revenue range when they can push them to add an extra comma instead.
AlphaWeaver 7y ago
> Is there a way for social media to stay fun and profitable? This, exactly this, is one of the reasons I founded VC3 (https://vc3.club https://vc3.club). If you're interested in discussing these topics in a purely intellectual way, we would love to have you join us.
- csomar 7y ago
  > This, exactly this, is one of the reasons I founded VC3 I did submit an application but I'm confused now. Did you found VC3 to discuss how to build fun and profitable social media sites or is VC3 the fun and profitable social media site. Because it says on the site that it's free and not for profit?
  - AlphaWeaver 7y ago
    VC3 is not for profit - it's a place to discuss questions like these, not the answer to that question. Think of it as similar to a virtual "think-tank."
    - _curious_ 7y ago
      What is the benefit of leaving HN for another site/forum to discuss when you could just comment and engage right here where the question was posed?
      - AlphaWeaver 7y ago
        For one thing, the problem of thoughtful monetization of social networks is a very large one, and Hacker News comments are not my favorite medium to conduct intellectual debate and analysis on large problems. The community on HN is awesome for getting really nitpicky, but the audience for discussing these sorts of problems is only a small slice of the larger HN audience. I started VC3 as a community formed around a specific purpose (discussing "building meaningful community") specifically to try to build more engaging and valuable discussion, and I personally think that a smaller, closed forum of enthusiastic individuals is a better way to do that than a public general-topic forum. There's a question in our FAQ [0] that goes into this in even more detail. Look for the header "Why is VC3 its own site?" [0]: https://vc3.club/#faq https://vc3.club/#faq
carpetfizz 7y ago
> Is there a way for social media to stay fun and profitable? I think Twitter gets pretty close. Sure they have ads (which are unobtrusive for the most part), a bot problem, a bullying problem, an anachronism problem - but that doesn't change the fact that an average user always finds some fun and interesting content on their feed if they're following a curated list of people. I'm impressed they've been able to keep the experience light on "features" and have kept their core user experience consistent since their perception.

arkanciscan 7y ago

As a long time Foursquare user who switched to Swarm I can say it's still the same FourSquare it always was. It's just as "fun" as it ever was. It's awkward to have two apps on my phone and I hate that product decision too, but it's better than them killing off the check-in feature altogether. That's what Google would have done.

jkestner 7y ago
I never used the original app, but use the new FourSquare for discovering food after Yelp grew increasingly anti-user (both consumers and businesses). Makes me cynically wonder how FourSquare is screwing us over.
- covercash 7y ago
  For a while now, friends and family have been relying on me for restaurant recommendations whenever they travel. Foursquare is my starting place and I then use Infatuation and Yelp written reviews (not their star ratings) to narrow things down.
sneak 7y ago
That is precisely what Google did do the first time they bought them, as Dodgeball.
mastre_ 7y ago
There are almost no badges in the new app, useless coins (at least if you could upgrade your badges with them as back in the day).. I fail to see how it's the same "fun" as it ever was. I have a few friends that still use it religiously, one day I plan on thinking deeply about what these people have in common because on the surface they seem rather random -- some are technologists, some aren't; all of them are 30+. I think there is a _lot_ to be done in the field. As with anything these days it would most likely require a large effort with sizable investment, but I think it's an area that's grossly overlooked.
- dionidium 7y ago
  > one day I plan on thinking deeply about what these people have in common because on the surface they seem rather random -- some are technologists, some aren't I've had the same thought. I'm a software engineer in my 30s and I still use it religiously. I have a few friends who still use it, too. They are a high school teacher in his 30s, a project manager in her 30s, an attorney in her 40s, and an audio engineer in his 30s.
  - mastre_ 7y ago
    Isn't that weird? My group is similarly all over the map like that. One of my friends has been traveling the world non-stop for years now, it's interesting to see all of the places he's been to (although now he's been to most countries multiple times). I'm into software too; a couple of my friends who use it are too, but some of the others aren't.
    - arkanciscan 7y ago
      I follow a couple people who seem to check-in compulsively despite never doing anything very interesting. Like busstops and gas stations. Some of them even check into their own houses on the reg. I think some of them may be using automated check-in tools.
- chipotle_coyote 7y ago
  I still use it and I'm well over 30. I can't speak to your friends, but I like the history of where I've been. I love driving and finding new places -- at least, back when things were open, remember when there were cafés and stuff? -- and, on the flip side, I (used to) go out to eat for most meals and could fall into regular patterns, and sometimes checking Swarm to remind me that, yes, I had been to such-and-such place twice already this month could kick me into trying something new. Making the coins utterly useless irritates me, though, and I'm kind of surprised they dropped the whole notion of partnering with businesses to offer specials to regular customers they had in the pre-Swarm days. While I presume they pivoted into selling location data because the partnerships just didn't make them enough money, I'd hope the partnerships weren't losing them money, and I think they really drove usage.

fernandopj 7y ago

> But alas, Foursquare simply had no way of making money. Their revenue is 100 MM/year. [1] You may not (like me) like their pivot then, or business focus, but they do run a successful business. [1] https://www.owler.com/company/foursquare https://www.owler.com/company/foursquare

mangoman 7y ago
Sorry, I was referring to the OG check-in app. They definitely make money now, but are they really foursquare anymore?

ramraj07 7y ago

If you look at their data offerings it's downright creepy to put it mildly. They offer services where they can ping store owners when someone enters their store! I'd trust Google before I trust a company like Yelp or foursquare.

wyxuan 7y ago
Four square works with other apps to do the tracking, so it's almost inevitable that you'll be tracked.
- alwayseasy 7y ago
  Especially since they have data on the entire Uber user base.

meerita 7y ago

I had the same experience. I was truly hooked with 4sq app, documenting all the places i've been, getting mayors, badges, etc. After they made that side app, everything was ok, it made me quit using 4sq right away.

Ayesh 7y ago
Gamification with locations can go a long way. Pre-Swamp 4sq, Pokemon Go, and even Google Maps Timeline is addicting. I try to de-Google myself a lot, but at the same time, I find myself perfecting my Google maps timeline so I know the places I've already been to.
- meerita 7y ago
  It's amazing many of these cool ideas died in favor of datamining and profits. I wonder what lead them to do these changes. I've read stories of people traveling in buses to diferent locations in USA just to check-in. I wish I had that strong community.

naravara 7y ago

I kind of wish I had a better idea about the finances for a lot of these applications. Back in the "fun" days part of the reason they were fun was because they didn't need to worry about making money. As they started to try and bring in modes of revenue extraction, they started to feel more user hostile (either in terms of gates and paywalls, excessive ads, or really creepy levels of data harvesting). But I'm curious if another path was ever available. My gut feeling is that many (not all) of these products probably had perfectly serviceable business models available to them if they were content to just be a fairly unsexy utility with low margins. But the focus on establishing a platform monopoly and/or being a billion dollar unicorn has pushed them all towards these societally maladaptive ways approaches that kind of put people off the whole thing. I don't have the numbers to back any of that up, though, and I'm not sure anyone does aside from the VC people. But they, understandably, have no incentive to let someone stay in the 7 or 8-figure revenue range when they can push them to add an extra comma instead.

AlphaWeaver 7y ago

> Is there a way for social media to stay fun and profitable? This, exactly this, is one of the reasons I founded VC3 (https://vc3.club https://vc3.club). If you're interested in discussing these topics in a purely intellectual way, we would love to have you join us.

csomar 7y ago
> This, exactly this, is one of the reasons I founded VC3 I did submit an application but I'm confused now. Did you found VC3 to discuss how to build fun and profitable social media sites or is VC3 the fun and profitable social media site. Because it says on the site that it's free and not for profit?
- AlphaWeaver 7y ago
  VC3 is not for profit - it's a place to discuss questions like these, not the answer to that question. Think of it as similar to a virtual "think-tank."
  - _curious_ 7y ago
    What is the benefit of leaving HN for another site/forum to discuss when you could just comment and engage right here where the question was posed?
    - AlphaWeaver 7y ago
      For one thing, the problem of thoughtful monetization of social networks is a very large one, and Hacker News comments are not my favorite medium to conduct intellectual debate and analysis on large problems. The community on HN is awesome for getting really nitpicky, but the audience for discussing these sorts of problems is only a small slice of the larger HN audience. I started VC3 as a community formed around a specific purpose (discussing "building meaningful community") specifically to try to build more engaging and valuable discussion, and I personally think that a smaller, closed forum of enthusiastic individuals is a better way to do that than a public general-topic forum. There's a question in our FAQ [0] that goes into this in even more detail. Look for the header "Why is VC3 its own site?" [0]: https://vc3.club/#faq https://vc3.club/#faq

carpetfizz 7y ago

> Is there a way for social media to stay fun and profitable? I think Twitter gets pretty close. Sure they have ads (which are unobtrusive for the most part), a bot problem, a bullying problem, an anachronism problem - but that doesn't change the fact that an average user always finds some fun and interesting content on their feed if they're following a curated list of people. I'm impressed they've been able to keep the experience light on "features" and have kept their core user experience consistent since their perception.