4 ms·

>Honestly, you think I don't know about docker? You think I don't know about the cloud? "Infrastructure as code" oooh buzzwords, you're just using a shittier do

by vp8989 7y ago

>Honestly, you think I don't know about docker? You think I don't know about the cloud? "Infrastructure as code" oooh buzzwords, you're just using a shittier domain specific language to write something that you can also do with Regular code (such as python, no buzzwords needed). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

crimsonalucard 7y ago
Let's stay on topic rather than make passive aggressive comments on my intelligence. You're implying that my comments are stupid and arrogant. Prove it if you can, let's get to the bottom of whether or not "architects" is a worthless specialty or not. I think you know I'm right and the only thing you have left are personal comments on my intelligence.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Honestly, I also had a long reply but I thought why bother? You haven’t gotten past the first step to knowing what you don’t know. We all thought we were the smartest people in the room at one point, you’ll grow out of it too one day.
  - crimsonalucard 7y ago
    >We all thought we were the smartest people in the room at one point, you’ll grow out of it too one day. Again with the insults. Why bother? Because you can learn and I can learn. I don't come here to trade insults. I come here to lay down the actual reality of what I see unimpeded by social norms. Yeah I'm sure I touched nerve here, but it's nothing personal, the internet allows me to talk about truths that are uncomfortable and forces me to face those truths as well. I've been proven wrong tons of times on HN, so I'm hoping that if you disagree, you can prove me wrong and I can learn something and I'll return the favor in turn if you're the one that's actually wrong. I find that this isn't the case with most people, they don't want to face reality. The fact that you turn to personal insults and have this whole "why bother" attitude seems to me as a cover. You don't bother because you got absolutely Nothing to offer.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      It isn’t intended to be an insult. This thread is veering way off topic but if you think you can learn everything that you need to know by reading a few blog posts and Wikipedia articles, what’s the point? Why ask on HN if as you say everything you need to know you can find from a few blog posts? As software engineers, we tend to be told especially when we are young that we are all “smart people” (tm). We start to internalize it (believe our own bullshit). But the longer your career is, you realize that the world is full of “smart people” and that your coworkers also came up thinking they were the smartest people in the room.
      - crimsonalucard 7y ago
        It's an insult drenched in the social politics that are an intrinsic part of our corporate politics. Some positions are useless and ultimately require more politics to stay relevant. Architecture is such a position and you seem to be good at politics. You don't even know how old I am, you don't even know what level of intelligence I consider myself to be. Yet you make a bunch of baseless comments hinting at my personal character. That is the extent of what you're trying to convey, an insult through and through yet subtle on many levels. Politics, the only essential skill needed to become an architect. When did I say you can learn everything you need to know by reading some blog posts or Wikipedia? I never said this. I only said that you can do this for 'architecture' and that's why the job role 'software architect' is complete bullshit. Now let's get back on topic. You disagree with me. You think architects know something about 'architecture' that is beyond Wikipedia and blog posts. Prove it. You think they have some ability that sets them apart from normal engineers. Tell me what that is and why there exists articles like this: http://www.realfreemarket.org/blog/2012/09/13/never-trust-a-software-architect/ http://www.realfreemarket.org/blog/2012/09/13/never-trust-a-... I don't want to see another irrelevant comment because that just tells me that you got absolutely nothing left. Prove the worth of a software architect.
idoby 7y ago
Well, using general Turing-complete code languages for infra and config vs specialized templates/languages is a legit point of contention in the industry right now, although judging by the style, GP isn't considering the pros and cons of each approach, which include: * Forcing users to learn a specialized language vs reusing knowledge of a general purpose language * Inevitable Turing-completeness creep and increasing complexity in specialized languages * Complexity and difficulty of reasoning about general purpose code (and analyzability) So GP does have a point. He/she is just not making it very well, I think.
- scarface74 7y ago
  While I agree the pendulum goes both ways - for instance a AWS’s CDK builds templates using your language of choice. How can someone know the tradeoffs without a breadth of experience who thinks they can learn everything they need to know from Wikipedia? “There is no compression algorithm for experience.”
  - crimsonalucard 7y ago
    You don't even know how much experience I have. I'm saying architecture patterns can be learned from Wikipedia not 'everything'. A devops configuration language (outside the domain of architecture) is not included in this category. Please don't be manipulative and please do not lie.
- crimsonalucard 7y ago
  The tradeoffs you mention are obvious right? I'm just sort of downplaying the huge bragging Scarface was doing when he mentioned he did some cloud formation and "infrastructure as code" because it's really not that impressive. It's obvious that the logical consequence of using Turing complete languages for devops introduce a lot of complexity into infrastructure and can introduce configuration that executes continuously as well. Bugs that only existed in the application layer now creep into infrastructure. Infinite recursion can now be spinning up infinite instances. That being said the devops thing was a side detail and that's besides the point. The point is that the role 'software architect' is useless.

by vp8989 7y ago

crimsonalucard 7y ago

Let's stay on topic rather than make passive aggressive comments on my intelligence. You're implying that my comments are stupid and arrogant. Prove it if you can, let's get to the bottom of whether or not "architects" is a worthless specialty or not. I think you know I'm right and the only thing you have left are personal comments on my intelligence.

scarface74 7y ago
Honestly, I also had a long reply but I thought why bother? You haven’t gotten past the first step to knowing what you don’t know. We all thought we were the smartest people in the room at one point, you’ll grow out of it too one day.
- crimsonalucard 7y ago
  >We all thought we were the smartest people in the room at one point, you’ll grow out of it too one day. Again with the insults. Why bother? Because you can learn and I can learn. I don't come here to trade insults. I come here to lay down the actual reality of what I see unimpeded by social norms. Yeah I'm sure I touched nerve here, but it's nothing personal, the internet allows me to talk about truths that are uncomfortable and forces me to face those truths as well. I've been proven wrong tons of times on HN, so I'm hoping that if you disagree, you can prove me wrong and I can learn something and I'll return the favor in turn if you're the one that's actually wrong. I find that this isn't the case with most people, they don't want to face reality. The fact that you turn to personal insults and have this whole "why bother" attitude seems to me as a cover. You don't bother because you got absolutely Nothing to offer.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    It isn’t intended to be an insult. This thread is veering way off topic but if you think you can learn everything that you need to know by reading a few blog posts and Wikipedia articles, what’s the point? Why ask on HN if as you say everything you need to know you can find from a few blog posts? As software engineers, we tend to be told especially when we are young that we are all “smart people” (tm). We start to internalize it (believe our own bullshit). But the longer your career is, you realize that the world is full of “smart people” and that your coworkers also came up thinking they were the smartest people in the room.
    - crimsonalucard 7y ago
      It's an insult drenched in the social politics that are an intrinsic part of our corporate politics. Some positions are useless and ultimately require more politics to stay relevant. Architecture is such a position and you seem to be good at politics. You don't even know how old I am, you don't even know what level of intelligence I consider myself to be. Yet you make a bunch of baseless comments hinting at my personal character. That is the extent of what you're trying to convey, an insult through and through yet subtle on many levels. Politics, the only essential skill needed to become an architect. When did I say you can learn everything you need to know by reading some blog posts or Wikipedia? I never said this. I only said that you can do this for 'architecture' and that's why the job role 'software architect' is complete bullshit. Now let's get back on topic. You disagree with me. You think architects know something about 'architecture' that is beyond Wikipedia and blog posts. Prove it. You think they have some ability that sets them apart from normal engineers. Tell me what that is and why there exists articles like this: http://www.realfreemarket.org/blog/2012/09/13/never-trust-a-software-architect/ http://www.realfreemarket.org/blog/2012/09/13/never-trust-a-... I don't want to see another irrelevant comment because that just tells me that you got absolutely nothing left. Prove the worth of a software architect.

idoby 7y ago

Well, using general Turing-complete code languages for infra and config vs specialized templates/languages is a legit point of contention in the industry right now, although judging by the style, GP isn't considering the pros and cons of each approach, which include: * Forcing users to learn a specialized language vs reusing knowledge of a general purpose language * Inevitable Turing-completeness creep and increasing complexity in specialized languages * Complexity and difficulty of reasoning about general purpose code (and analyzability) So GP does have a point. He/she is just not making it very well, I think.

scarface74 7y ago
While I agree the pendulum goes both ways - for instance a AWS’s CDK builds templates using your language of choice. How can someone know the tradeoffs without a breadth of experience who thinks they can learn everything they need to know from Wikipedia? “There is no compression algorithm for experience.”
- crimsonalucard 7y ago
  You don't even know how much experience I have. I'm saying architecture patterns can be learned from Wikipedia not 'everything'. A devops configuration language (outside the domain of architecture) is not included in this category. Please don't be manipulative and please do not lie.
crimsonalucard 7y ago
The tradeoffs you mention are obvious right? I'm just sort of downplaying the huge bragging Scarface was doing when he mentioned he did some cloud formation and "infrastructure as code" because it's really not that impressive. It's obvious that the logical consequence of using Turing complete languages for devops introduce a lot of complexity into infrastructure and can introduce configuration that executes continuously as well. Bugs that only existed in the application layer now creep into infrastructure. Infinite recursion can now be spinning up infinite instances. That being said the devops thing was a side detail and that's besides the point. The point is that the role 'software architect' is useless.