5 ms·

If your possessions all have practical utility, you are already a hardcore minimalist. No one should begrudge you a well-stocked and well-used workshop. That’s

If your possessions all have practical utility, you are already a hardcore minimalist. No one should begrudge you a well-stocked and well-used workshop. That’s not what the minimalist message is supposed to be about. It’s the stuff accumulated carelessly, just because you could. Decorative doo-dads, outfits worn once, toys from kids long since grown, furniture retained out of a sense of duty. The suburban middle-class lifestyle I grew up in has a tendency to accumulate a monotonically increasing volume of possessions without much thought. My grandparents have more square footage than my entire apartment dedicated to the storage of useless, meaningless crap. It is, in fact, a necessary and useful message for many people to be more deliberate about what you choose to buy and retain. If the only things you can think to cut are tools, you are not one of those people.

jankotek 7y ago
Imagine large old shed with some rusting car wrecks around. I think that is minimalists nightmare, but reality of self reliant utilitarian guy. You accumulate stuff carelessly because storage cost is zero. Even old junk can be source of aluminium block for machining, steel bar for welding or copper coil for wires.
- eeZah7Ux 7y ago
  > I think that is minimalists nightmare Not at all.
  - the_bowme 7y ago
    Yes, it is. Unless you have an explanation of why not without getting into no true Scotsman territory.
    - ooobit2 7y ago
      Minimalism is about maintaining useful purpose behind the things you own and not retaining unnecessary objects. If you're a DIY person, and you have a good reason for a backyard of junk cars, that's explainable. If you buy a new iPhone every year but you don't actually use the majority of the new features (if ever at all), that's frivolity. Minimalism isn't the ideology that (less is more)==(less things). That comes from people appropriating philosophies to compete for attention on social media, where everything is at best one-dimensional because the point is to entertain not educate. No, minimalism as a philosophy means (less is more)==(object-essentialism). You initialize solutions among what you have, and factor the time, resource, and opportunity cost into the cost-benefit of acquiring a new object. So, as I mentioned, if acquiring a backyard of junk cars is more cost-benefit savvy than having to acquire a new junk car every time you need a resource from one, it's minimalist. However, if you acquire a junk car that adds what you already have a sufficient amount of, it's frivolity.
      - the_bowme 7y ago
        So minimalism is just efficiency? Call it that then. And frivolity isn't a relevant category to minimalism. You could be minimalist in achieving frivolous ends. Clearly you're carrying too much in the term.
    - smoe 7y ago
      It is hard to avoid no true Scotsman territory for a term that in not very well defined and used slightly differently depending on context (what medium, which aspect of life, geographically). Also I haven't read any of the linked books/articles the newrepublic piece links. Wikipedia has it as: "The term minimalist often colloquially refers to anything that is spare or stripped to its essentials." Oxford Dictionary as: "a style of art, music or design that uses very simple ideas or a very small number of simple elements" So in my opinion, having rusting car wrecks around in an old shed with the intent to re-use their essential spare parts later is perfectly compatible with minimalism, and what I would expect someone with the skill set and space to do so. Contrast that with a large garage where numerous expensive cars are being parked and continuously maintained as well as cost of electricity, cleaning, security etc. for the building, although the cars are pretty much never driven. That would be much closer to a minimalists nightmare. Not the self reliant utilitarian guy with the old shed.
      - the_bowme 7y ago
        The comparison is between having a single working car that you pay someone to fix when it breaks vs. owning a car that you can fix by yourself by having lots of tools and parts around. The first is minimalist because it involves less physical material to store and organize. The second is self reliant because you can do for yourself without needing to draw on outside systems as much. The example you gave is just moving the goal posts completely. The large many car garage case is both less minimalist and less self reliant, so not to the point.
jdietrich 7y ago
>If your possessions all have practical utility, you are already a hardcore minimalist. The problem is that "practical utility" isn't always obvious. I have boxes and boxes of components and other oddments that collectively form a useful library, but I have no way of predicting which specific oddments will be useful in future. Any given item is currently useless, but might become extremely useful at some indeterminable point in the future. There's a very fine line between a prepper and a hoarder.
- dgreensp 7y ago
  This is why Marie Kondo’s approach is personal and about getting in touch with your feelings. No one is going to deny you your collection. One of my pet peeves is when someone is trying to help you get rid of “stuff you don’t use,” and they pick up an object and say, “When’s the last time you used this? I’ve never seen you use this.” You’re allowed to have things you don’t use very often, if they are the sort of things you want to have around. Yet, this permission doesn’t necessarily prevent getting rid of tons of stuff. One thing I’ve noticed is that if I can’t find something, its utility is basically zero. If I forget I have it, even more so. Also, things cluttering up a room (visually and in terms of physical space) feel like clutter. So, ideally a collection would be organized enough (which could mean stuff is just piled in boxes, but I’m sufficiently familiar with the boxes), and stored in a suitable place. I think there’s a lot of power in encouraging people to get rid of stuff that they actually would be happier if they got rid of, by helping them make their own authentic determination.
- 1MachineElf 7y ago
  Earlier this week, I accidentally dropped a box full of old computer parts that hadn't been touched in almost a year. Some old hard drives flew out and crashed on the floor. I thought "good thing everything on those drives is backed up, and nothing critical was lost." Yesterday I got a call from one of the former owners of one of these drives. They lost the USB stick I gave them a long time ago with their software license key that I pulled from one of those drives. The drives I had been hoarding could have saved us $500 on Adelo POS software. One man's trash really can be another's treasure.
- closeparen 7y ago
matthewmcg 7y ago
I’ve always thought Guy Clark’s song Stuff that Works captures this ethos perfectly. Here is the first verse and chorus: I got an old blue shirt and it suits me just fine I like the way it feels so I wear it all the time I got an old guitar, won't ever stay in tune I like the way it sounds in a dark and empty room I got an old pair of boots and they fit just right Well I can work all day and I can dance all night I got an old used car and it runs just like a top I get the feeling it ain`t ever going to stop [Chorus] Stuff that works, stuff that holds up The kind of stuff you don`t hang on the wall Stuff that`s real, stuff you feel The kind of stuff you reach for when you fall https://genius.com/Guy-clark-stuff-that-works-lyrics#note-8593968 https://genius.com/Guy-clark-stuff-that-works-lyrics#note-85...
- jonnydubowsky 7y ago
  Thanks for this fitting music to accompany this conversation. Its a perfect fit and a beautiful song!
monadic2 7y ago
> If your possessions all have practical utility, This seems tautological or uselessly subjective. What is a possession without practical value? You seem to have talked yourself out of seeing the value in possessions you own. Perhaps you are simply anxious. How this attitude began to be associated with the minimalist design movement I have no clue.
- closeparen 7y ago
  If that seems tautological, you're already bought in. For others it is very much not.
  - monadic2 7y ago
    > If that seems tautological, you're already bought in. ...bought in to what?
- majewsky 7y ago
  > What is a possession without practical value? Token gifts that have been gifts for the sake of gifting something. Most things in a souvenir store.
  - monadic2 7y ago
    Well damn I've been living a minimalist lifestyle my whole life without meaning to. > Token gifts that have been gifts for the sake of gifting something. There is utility value in sentimental gifts, too, but it's obviously subjective. Why not just say "get rid of items that stress you out", like people have been doing the entirety of human history? That's hardly a social movement or a lifestyle, though.

jankotek 7y ago

Imagine large old shed with some rusting car wrecks around. I think that is minimalists nightmare, but reality of self reliant utilitarian guy. You accumulate stuff carelessly because storage cost is zero. Even old junk can be source of aluminium block for machining, steel bar for welding or copper coil for wires.

eeZah7Ux 7y ago
> I think that is minimalists nightmare Not at all.
- the_bowme 7y ago
  Yes, it is. Unless you have an explanation of why not without getting into no true Scotsman territory.
  - ooobit2 7y ago
    Minimalism is about maintaining useful purpose behind the things you own and not retaining unnecessary objects. If you're a DIY person, and you have a good reason for a backyard of junk cars, that's explainable. If you buy a new iPhone every year but you don't actually use the majority of the new features (if ever at all), that's frivolity. Minimalism isn't the ideology that (less is more)==(less things). That comes from people appropriating philosophies to compete for attention on social media, where everything is at best one-dimensional because the point is to entertain not educate. No, minimalism as a philosophy means (less is more)==(object-essentialism). You initialize solutions among what you have, and factor the time, resource, and opportunity cost into the cost-benefit of acquiring a new object. So, as I mentioned, if acquiring a backyard of junk cars is more cost-benefit savvy than having to acquire a new junk car every time you need a resource from one, it's minimalist. However, if you acquire a junk car that adds what you already have a sufficient amount of, it's frivolity.
    - the_bowme 7y ago
      So minimalism is just efficiency? Call it that then. And frivolity isn't a relevant category to minimalism. You could be minimalist in achieving frivolous ends. Clearly you're carrying too much in the term.
  - smoe 7y ago
    It is hard to avoid no true Scotsman territory for a term that in not very well defined and used slightly differently depending on context (what medium, which aspect of life, geographically). Also I haven't read any of the linked books/articles the newrepublic piece links. Wikipedia has it as: "The term minimalist often colloquially refers to anything that is spare or stripped to its essentials." Oxford Dictionary as: "a style of art, music or design that uses very simple ideas or a very small number of simple elements" So in my opinion, having rusting car wrecks around in an old shed with the intent to re-use their essential spare parts later is perfectly compatible with minimalism, and what I would expect someone with the skill set and space to do so. Contrast that with a large garage where numerous expensive cars are being parked and continuously maintained as well as cost of electricity, cleaning, security etc. for the building, although the cars are pretty much never driven. That would be much closer to a minimalists nightmare. Not the self reliant utilitarian guy with the old shed.
    - the_bowme 7y ago
      The comparison is between having a single working car that you pay someone to fix when it breaks vs. owning a car that you can fix by yourself by having lots of tools and parts around. The first is minimalist because it involves less physical material to store and organize. The second is self reliant because you can do for yourself without needing to draw on outside systems as much. The example you gave is just moving the goal posts completely. The large many car garage case is both less minimalist and less self reliant, so not to the point.

jdietrich 7y ago

>If your possessions all have practical utility, you are already a hardcore minimalist. The problem is that "practical utility" isn't always obvious. I have boxes and boxes of components and other oddments that collectively form a useful library, but I have no way of predicting which specific oddments will be useful in future. Any given item is currently useless, but might become extremely useful at some indeterminable point in the future. There's a very fine line between a prepper and a hoarder.

dgreensp 7y ago
This is why Marie Kondo’s approach is personal and about getting in touch with your feelings. No one is going to deny you your collection. One of my pet peeves is when someone is trying to help you get rid of “stuff you don’t use,” and they pick up an object and say, “When’s the last time you used this? I’ve never seen you use this.” You’re allowed to have things you don’t use very often, if they are the sort of things you want to have around. Yet, this permission doesn’t necessarily prevent getting rid of tons of stuff. One thing I’ve noticed is that if I can’t find something, its utility is basically zero. If I forget I have it, even more so. Also, things cluttering up a room (visually and in terms of physical space) feel like clutter. So, ideally a collection would be organized enough (which could mean stuff is just piled in boxes, but I’m sufficiently familiar with the boxes), and stored in a suitable place. I think there’s a lot of power in encouraging people to get rid of stuff that they actually would be happier if they got rid of, by helping them make their own authentic determination.
1MachineElf 7y ago
Earlier this week, I accidentally dropped a box full of old computer parts that hadn't been touched in almost a year. Some old hard drives flew out and crashed on the floor. I thought "good thing everything on those drives is backed up, and nothing critical was lost." Yesterday I got a call from one of the former owners of one of these drives. They lost the USB stick I gave them a long time ago with their software license key that I pulled from one of those drives. The drives I had been hoarding could have saved us $500 on Adelo POS software. One man's trash really can be another's treasure.
closeparen 7y ago

matthewmcg 7y ago

I’ve always thought Guy Clark’s song Stuff that Works captures this ethos perfectly. Here is the first verse and chorus: I got an old blue shirt and it suits me just fine I like the way it feels so I wear it all the time I got an old guitar, won't ever stay in tune I like the way it sounds in a dark and empty room I got an old pair of boots and they fit just right Well I can work all day and I can dance all night I got an old used car and it runs just like a top I get the feeling it ain`t ever going to stop [Chorus] Stuff that works, stuff that holds up The kind of stuff you don`t hang on the wall Stuff that`s real, stuff you feel The kind of stuff you reach for when you fall https://genius.com/Guy-clark-stuff-that-works-lyrics#note-8593968 https://genius.com/Guy-clark-stuff-that-works-lyrics#note-85...

jonnydubowsky 7y ago
Thanks for this fitting music to accompany this conversation. Its a perfect fit and a beautiful song!

monadic2 7y ago

> If your possessions all have practical utility, This seems tautological or uselessly subjective. What is a possession without practical value? You seem to have talked yourself out of seeing the value in possessions you own. Perhaps you are simply anxious. How this attitude began to be associated with the minimalist design movement I have no clue.

closeparen 7y ago
If that seems tautological, you're already bought in. For others it is very much not.
- monadic2 7y ago
  > If that seems tautological, you're already bought in. ...bought in to what?
majewsky 7y ago
> What is a possession without practical value? Token gifts that have been gifts for the sake of gifting something. Most things in a souvenir store.
- monadic2 7y ago
  Well damn I've been living a minimalist lifestyle my whole life without meaning to. > Token gifts that have been gifts for the sake of gifting something. There is utility value in sentimental gifts, too, but it's obviously subjective. Why not just say "get rid of items that stress you out", like people have been doing the entirety of human history? That's hardly a social movement or a lifestyle, though.