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The point at which the government should have rewritten their COBOL systems into a language that would have a talent pool to draw from was at least 30 years ago

by c3534l 7y ago

The point at which the government should have rewritten their COBOL systems into a language that would have a talent pool to draw from was at least 30 years ago.

_delirium 7y ago
There's a claim in one of the reply threads that they contracted HP to build a replacement years ago, but the project didn't succeed: https://twitter.com/tradel/status/1246526465207869440 https://twitter.com/tradel/status/1246526465207869440
- dehrmann 7y ago
  This feels like government thinking around infrastructure or military hardware where you open up bids and accept the lowest offer. While there are problems with lowest-bidder-win, the real issue here is that systems like this are more living and breathing than one-off; you need a teams that tend to them, not bringing in a contractor.
  - Lammy 7y ago
    The linked Twitter thread includes replies from someone who worked on the intended-replacement system indicating that “in the field” data entry accuracy was one of the biggest problems and not something that could be easily solved in code.
  - LeoTinnitus 7y ago
    This is what happens when you have typical business moron-types get elected roles that treat complicated systems as though it's construction work. It is, but you can't have any joe schmoe off the street coming in and learn how to pour concrete in a day. This is something that requires practice and problem solving skills. And years of it.
    - _delirium 7y ago
      Judging by how a lot of construction projects have gone, this might also be usefully applied to pouring concrete [1]! [1] https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/major-concrete-issues-found-in-silver-line-metro-extension/53398/ https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/major-concrete-issu...
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - scarface74 7y ago
      And these are the same people that people on HN think should “regulate tech”.
- coryrc 7y ago
  Needs a design-build contract, like the Highway 99 tunnel in Seattle. You get one set of money and only if it works in the end. No change orders or cost plus.
  - zerocrates 7y ago
    It's funny to see the viaduct replacement brought up as a success, but I guess if the state wasn't on the hook for the cost overruns it was probably a pretty good outcome, all things considered.
    - coryrc 7y ago
      I'm still astonished we haven't yet been made to pay for that disaster. (Other than a billion more than fixing it would cost and with increased congestion...)
Spooky23 7y ago
Easier said than done. UI is mostly federally funded so they need to coordinate with them, and the complexity of the business rules and minimal funding during good times makes it a difficult task. Also these systems generally work well, and it’s hard to fix things that aren’t broken. They just cannot handle the never before seen volume — it’s unlikely that a more modern enterprise system would either.
- syshum 7y ago
  >>it’s unlikely that a more modern enterprise system would either. sorry but that is just false. a Properly designed modern system would handle horizontal scaling just fine. Granted the government would likely pay a billion dollars to have a screwed up system developed by on of the "big guys" that has the same problems as they current system, most likely because it would be designed by committee and not by engineers. However to say that modern systems could not handle this kind of problem is just wrong. There are all kinds of ways to handle a sudden increase in load.
  - Spooky23 7y ago
    Many things are possible. But a core premise of government procurement is that you award to the cheapest vendor that minimally meets the mandatory requirements. Nobody would deliver a system that would just work with a claim load exponentially higher than the Great Depression. If New Jersey landed a replacement UI system in 2010, it would be some sort of J2EE monstrosity on some outdated Websphere/JBoss/BEA/Oracle platform probably still dependent on some mainframe component. The desperation for COBOL people is almost certainly because the (very complex) business rules are embedded in code that has been evolving for decades. Just changing anything is hard because it is a security nightmare (touches tax data, social security, dmv, and more) and regulated by all sorts of security/compliance frameworks that are difficult to implement and sometimes conflicting!
    - syshum 7y ago
      Yes I am well aware of how inefficient and ineffective government is, that is one of the primary reasons I remain a libertarian... As the saying goes, Government: if you think you have problems just wait until you see our solutions
ex3ndr 7y ago
In SF permitting/entitlement system is being rewritten for already 5 (8?) years. Funding is only ~1M, while this is an easy task such small budget for for 5 years of work does not worth it even if you can build this by a single developer. And this is a department that have billions.
throw_m239339 7y ago
> The point at which the government should have rewritten their COBOL systems into a language that would have a talent pool to draw from was at least 30 years ago. Lack of foresight, lack of understanding that codebases are a living thing and are never "done". But hey, let's all work for ad companies and put our best minds at solving how we could make people see more ads! Isn't it the power of the executive branch to requisition corporations or people in time of deep crisis in order maintain the continuity of government and its critical systems? Isn't unemployment claims such a critical system?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

by c3534l 7y ago

The point at which the government should have rewritten their COBOL systems into a language that would have a talent pool to draw from was at least 30 years ago.

_delirium 7y ago

There's a claim in one of the reply threads that they contracted HP to build a replacement years ago, but the project didn't succeed: https://twitter.com/tradel/status/1246526465207869440 https://twitter.com/tradel/status/1246526465207869440

dehrmann 7y ago
This feels like government thinking around infrastructure or military hardware where you open up bids and accept the lowest offer. While there are problems with lowest-bidder-win, the real issue here is that systems like this are more living and breathing than one-off; you need a teams that tend to them, not bringing in a contractor.
- Lammy 7y ago
  The linked Twitter thread includes replies from someone who worked on the intended-replacement system indicating that “in the field” data entry accuracy was one of the biggest problems and not something that could be easily solved in code.
- LeoTinnitus 7y ago
  This is what happens when you have typical business moron-types get elected roles that treat complicated systems as though it's construction work. It is, but you can't have any joe schmoe off the street coming in and learn how to pour concrete in a day. This is something that requires practice and problem solving skills. And years of it.
  - _delirium 7y ago
    Judging by how a lot of construction projects have gone, this might also be usefully applied to pouring concrete [1]! [1] https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/major-concrete-issues-found-in-silver-line-metro-extension/53398/ https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/major-concrete-issu...
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - scarface74 7y ago
    And these are the same people that people on HN think should “regulate tech”.
coryrc 7y ago
Needs a design-build contract, like the Highway 99 tunnel in Seattle. You get one set of money and only if it works in the end. No change orders or cost plus.
- zerocrates 7y ago
  It's funny to see the viaduct replacement brought up as a success, but I guess if the state wasn't on the hook for the cost overruns it was probably a pretty good outcome, all things considered.
  - coryrc 7y ago
    I'm still astonished we haven't yet been made to pay for that disaster. (Other than a billion more than fixing it would cost and with increased congestion...)

Spooky23 7y ago

Easier said than done. UI is mostly federally funded so they need to coordinate with them, and the complexity of the business rules and minimal funding during good times makes it a difficult task. Also these systems generally work well, and it’s hard to fix things that aren’t broken. They just cannot handle the never before seen volume — it’s unlikely that a more modern enterprise system would either.

syshum 7y ago
>>it’s unlikely that a more modern enterprise system would either. sorry but that is just false. a Properly designed modern system would handle horizontal scaling just fine. Granted the government would likely pay a billion dollars to have a screwed up system developed by on of the "big guys" that has the same problems as they current system, most likely because it would be designed by committee and not by engineers. However to say that modern systems could not handle this kind of problem is just wrong. There are all kinds of ways to handle a sudden increase in load.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  Many things are possible. But a core premise of government procurement is that you award to the cheapest vendor that minimally meets the mandatory requirements. Nobody would deliver a system that would just work with a claim load exponentially higher than the Great Depression. If New Jersey landed a replacement UI system in 2010, it would be some sort of J2EE monstrosity on some outdated Websphere/JBoss/BEA/Oracle platform probably still dependent on some mainframe component. The desperation for COBOL people is almost certainly because the (very complex) business rules are embedded in code that has been evolving for decades. Just changing anything is hard because it is a security nightmare (touches tax data, social security, dmv, and more) and regulated by all sorts of security/compliance frameworks that are difficult to implement and sometimes conflicting!
  - syshum 7y ago
    Yes I am well aware of how inefficient and ineffective government is, that is one of the primary reasons I remain a libertarian... As the saying goes, Government: if you think you have problems just wait until you see our solutions

ex3ndr 7y ago

In SF permitting/entitlement system is being rewritten for already 5 (8?) years. Funding is only ~1M, while this is an easy task such small budget for for 5 years of work does not worth it even if you can build this by a single developer. And this is a department that have billions.

throw_m239339 7y ago

> The point at which the government should have rewritten their COBOL systems into a language that would have a talent pool to draw from was at least 30 years ago. Lack of foresight, lack of understanding that codebases are a living thing and are never "done". But hey, let's all work for ad companies and put our best minds at solving how we could make people see more ads! Isn't it the power of the executive branch to requisition corporations or people in time of deep crisis in order maintain the continuity of government and its critical systems? Isn't unemployment claims such a critical system?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]