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The Android Developers Union

101 points by Mizza 16y ago

lwhi 16y ago
Is there a union for iPhone developers too?
- shaggyfrog 16y ago
  Pretty much every one of those points are applicable to Apple. However, I don't think it's a problem as long as most iOS developers are making a lot more money on iOS than Android. Not like anything's going to come of this lame petition anyway. If you're not making money as an Android dev, stop developing on Android. Online petitions are great for making people feel like they've actually done something, without actually making them put in any more effort than a button click.
  - lwhi 16y ago
    "Pretty much every one of those points are applicable to Apple. However, I don't think it's a problem as long as most iOS developers are making a lot more money on iOS than Android." Even so, there's not a cat in hell's chance than Apple would ever submit to 'union' pressure. I don't think Google can realistically be expected behave differently.
    - boucher 16y ago
      Of course this is a silly statement. If 100% of Apple developers decided to join a union in an attempt to collectively bargain, of course Apple would negotiate. If 1% join, of course they won't. Where the tipping point lies is an open question. It's fairly unlikely that enough people would ever get on board to find out, though, given the way things have played out thus far and the existing community.
    - brisance 16y ago
      When the original iPhone came out, the only way to deliver apps was via the web. Developers wanted an iPhone SDK, and that's exactly what they got in subsequent versions, which led to the App Store's success. When Apple came out with the "no non-Objective-C" clause aka section 3.3.1 lots of people demanded that it be changed. Apple eventually relented too. So... Apple does respond to feedback.
      - shaggyfrog 16y ago
        The clause was not simply "no non-Objective-C". It allowed for C/C++/Obj-C development as long as Xcode was the tool used to produce the binary. If they had banned C and C++, a lot of games would have had to disappear, considering how many games use external libraries. Not to mention a lot of non-game apps, like those that use the SQLite package (raw, not via Core Data).
        ZeroGravitas 16y ago
        A lot of games would have been banned either way e.g. use of Lua scripting or any 3rd party framework for cross-platform dev.
        shaggyfrog 16y ago
        Right, but that was because of a kind of prohibition on embedded scripting runtimes in general, and has nothing to do with C or C++ specifically.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- rlivsey 16y ago
  If there was, I expect its website would be nicer to look at...
irfn 16y ago
Are there any online petitions that have actually worked?
- lwhi 16y ago
  I think the biggest effect is often being able to start (or add weight to) a conversation within a wider community (eg. specialist or mainstream media). In that respect, I think petitions can be an effective part of a marketing campaign.
- dpcan 16y ago
  Betty White was on SNL :)
comex 16y ago
> The current Market provides only very vague guidelines about what is and isn't acceptable content on the market. Many developers have had their applications removed without warning, without notice and without explanation. These rejections have come with no method of appeal. > We demand that Google strictly codify the rules of the Market, and that any removals must be accompanied with a complete explanation and reference to the specific rules violated, and with a formal method for appeal. Hmm, where have I heard this before?
endlessvoid94 16y ago
I generally don't have a problem with developers having conversations with companies running platforms they're building on, but come on. The sense of entitlement is sickening. Could android do things better? Sure. But to act as if Google has a responsibility to the developers is a little bit far fetched, IMHO.
- nigelsampson 16y ago
  Agreed, literally changing the text from "demand" to "ask" helps it come across a lot better in my opinion.
  - barista 16y ago
    I think it really is an ask. It was just framed so that it is consistent with the union theme that the group is following. Otherwise, what "right" do they have to demand anything from Google? It's not like Google entered into some contract with them.
- lwhi 16y ago
  I think all of these corporations do have a responsibility to create reasonable conditions for developers - but I agree, these demands are quite unrealistic. Are there any other marketplaces which already grant what's being asked for?
  - Mizza 16y ago
    Could you elaborate upon which demands are unrealistic? There are other marketplaces with better conditions - however, these do not come installed with any devices, rendering them fairly useless in terms of profitability.
    - lwhi 16y ago
      I think some of these demands might make operating a competitive market difficult for Google - particularly open-sourcing their market's code and implementation (Algorithmic Transparency). Perhaps Google should be encouraged to create a marketplace which provides a better user experience for customers? In terms of other marketplaces - I strongly believe that the creation of alternatives will lead to major gains for Android as a platform. If conditions are made more favourable for developers (e.g. lower commission) due to competition, and a choice of marketplaces are provided to customers (with better UX) .. all markets (including Apple's) will eventually need to come into line. I think it's good you're making your voice heard though.
drivebyacct2 16y ago
So don't use the Market?
- lwhi 16y ago
  Android developers actually have a choice (unlike iPhone developers) - multiple markets exist. Competition between markets could plausibly create better conditions for developers. EDIT: eg. Verizon's Android Market (V CAST) and Amazon's upcoming marketplace.
  - Melkor 16y ago
    after looking at the site, i wondered where the 'made on a mac' footer was. interesting timing, considering the recent stories about the iAppstore. smells like personaware to me.
  - danudey 16y ago
    I feel like this would be theoretically better for middleman publishers but much worse for non-technical end users. I have to change a setting then download an app and set up an Amazon account just so I can download another app? Too confusing. Also, the Amazon store has, as I recall, the interesting caveat of the prices all being set by Amazon in the first place. You don't even get to decide what your app is worth, which a lot of developers wouldn't care for I suspect.
- metageek 16y ago
  That is what they're threatening: >If our demands are not met, we will move our applications to alternative marketplaces or the web, cease Android development in favor of other more open platforms, we will dissuade other developers from developing Android projects, and we will work tirelessly to counter any of Google's hypocritical claims about Openness in the media.
dantheman 16y ago
This is just a waste of time, ughh. If you don't like the market - don't use it. There are other markets, or you could create your own. The sense of entitlement is astounding. They don't force you to use the market, give you tools and everything for free. It's unbelievable. Yes, the markets not perfect, but imho stuff like this is worse and just creates meaningless controversy and wastes everyones time.
- lwhi 16y ago
  I don't think it does any harm - people need an opportunity to voice their opinion and to be heard. But I think in this case, some of the demands are pretty unrealistic.
- azernik 16y ago
  I think that's the whole point - they're essentially threatening that without these fixes to make developing and marketing easier, they'll go and find a different platform that will meet their needs.
ryanisinallofus 16y ago
Never let another company step in between you and your customers. American manufacturers learned this and now software development has moved in the same direction. Oh well. There are still plenty of opportunities. We laugh at the demanding tone of this "union," now but I suspect there will be a time when we wish something like this took off.
patrickaljord 16y ago
What is market curation exactly?
vacri 16y ago
regarding the first point about 32% take, below is my cut'n'paste from the same issue on the Apple platform. At least on Android you can sideload. Summary: "If you want to do business, you have to pay for services. Deal with it". If you think otherwise, well, there's a market full of screaming developers with little business experience, and this is the 'home of startups' - there's a startup idea to capitalise on. ---- I don't like Apple's business practises and never have, but this 70/30 split furore is hilarious to someone who has worked in retail and supply before. It is entirely normal for a retailer (apple) to take this kind of split in the retail price and the supplier/wholesaler to take 70%. In the retail industry I worked in, the retailer took a 35-40% portion. This split is yawningly normal in retail. What's not normal is the huge numbers of "one-person" wholesalers... who have very little in the way of business experience and see that split as a "tax" rather than payment for a service.
- natnat 16y ago
  Apple and Google may mark their apps up less than the average department store or grocery store, but it marks them up a hell of a lot more than most highly-efficient retail operations. Walmart marks up around 20%, and Costco never marks its products up more than 14%. And actual retail stores need to pay for their property, their employees, transportation, and utilities to keep their stores running. Apple and Google have none of these expenses. Additionally, both Apple and Google only operate app stores as side businesses to help sell their high margin hardware or get people to look at ads.
  - vacri 16y ago
    And don't Walmart and Costco have an excellent reputation for quality! And actual retail stores need to pay for their property, their employees, transportation, and utilities to keep their stores running. I thought someone would say this - as if developing the infrastructure and maintaining it is extremely low cost. Development of enterprise level software is expensive. Having individual reviews of every app is expensive. This is just apologism for people trying to get out of the rather humdrum retailer/wholesaler relationship.
  - metageek 16y ago
colinplamondon 16y ago
This guy should be banned from the Market simply so Google doesn't have to waste oxygen looking at his support requests. Anyone who takes the time to put together a list of hard-hitting business requests like 'algorithmic transparency' is going to ever, ever, ever have a hit consumer application. The linked list isn't about making more money, it's about ideological purity.
- lwhi 16y ago
  Without wanting to get political - I do believe sometimes capitalism does need reigning in. Not everything has to be about making money. In any case, some of the requests relate directly to customer (developer) support - positive gains here should definitely affect profitability.
- chrisrhoden 16y ago
  OP is responsible for top 5 level apps in several paid categories. More importantly, one of the grievances is that Google doesn't look at support requests. Like, at all.
  - logic 16y ago
    This is not exactly new behavior for them; it's just a new platform. Gmail and Apps users have dealt with this for years. Customer service and support continues to be the single biggest thing that Google gets wrong. And I say this as an unabashed Google fanboy in most other respects, at least compared to my immediate colleagues.
kefs 16y ago
What's missing from this post is the better Android Market app and ecosystem he designed and developed.. The only limiting factor is his willingness to educate himself.
makeramen 16y ago
I don't see much of a problem with the Market. Sure it could be better, but it could be a lot worse. I'd rather have them continue to spend developers' time and energy making Android competitive so we have a market to sell our apps, instead of catering to our every need.
arnorhs 16y ago
I can't believe I still can't purchase apps in the Android app store.. I only use ad-supported apps or free ones. I would love to spend money on android apps. But, I live in Iceland. Welcome to 2011.
jdp23 16y ago
It's interesting to me how many of the folks here on Hacker News disparage the developer and back the big corporation. Yay, solidarity!
- ryanisinallofus 16y ago
  I was thinking the same thing but knew how bad the karma police would punish me for saying it.
  - jdp23 16y ago
    Yeah, I guess it's not perceived as adding anything to the conversation by pointing out that people are acting against their own self interest.
- jsz0 16y ago
  People defend Apple too. There's a strong free market mindset behind this. We do have choices or at least the ability to influence the market by our own choices. I don't see any problem with these folks raising some valid issues, even if they do it in less than tactful fashion, but ultimately they are fighting a losing battle. Android, in its most accessible form, is not going to be the open platform some people envisioned. Google is not going to magically become as adept as Apple at selling things. Google isn't doing these things because they want to piss off developers and neither is Apple. They're doing it because they either just don't get it or they are putting their own best interests first. I think most of us relate to this because it's the same basic choice individuals make managing their own personal/financial affairs. I'm not going to hold Google or Apple to a higher standard but I will be happy to vote with my dollars if they challenge my best interests or if some new player happens to do it better.
uptown 16y ago
I'd just be happy if the market numbers updated more frequently than every couple days. My ad impression stats update in realtime. Why can't my downloads and error stats do the same?
- metageek 16y ago
  Even updating at the same time every day would be nice; then I could add the developer's console to the list of links I read every morning.
hunterp 16y ago
Regarding item #4: Increased Payment Options When the official Android market went live, you can now buy apps over the browser, then even download to your phone...so this is a bit out of date.
- dpcan 16y ago
  He may be referring to more payment options - like PayPal. I get emails all the time from people asking if they can pay with PayPal. EDIT: And until you've sold apps in the Android Market, you don't know the pain that is the infamous RED "Payment Declined" message in Google Checkout.
  - hunterp 16y ago
    I probably know the pain. I've been putting food on my table since 2009 solely from Android app development. And not for contracts either, just me vs. the market.
db42 16y ago
"our demands are not met, cease Android development in favor of other more open platforms," To other more open, like .... iOS, Windows mobile?? And, please don't say Symbian and Maemo..
- GeneralMaximus 16y ago
  iOS is more open than Android from where I stand. I live in India. A few months ago, I couldn't purchase Android applications. As of now, I can purchase applications but not sell them.
abraham 16y ago
> We demand that Google renegotiate this rate, either to a much lower percentage (preferably, no percentage) or give us some value for our money in terms of Market curation and support. So either lower the price or add multi week review process followed by arbitrary denials?
GeneralMaximus 16y ago
What about letting people from more countries sell applications on the Market? I know a couple of folks -- long time Mac users and developers who did not want to develop for iOS on moral grounds -- who built some breathtakingly beautiful apps for Android. Simple apps. Prototypes, meant to test the Androidian waters. Beautiful nonetheless. They are currently thinking of moving to iOS because Indian developers can't sell apps on the Market. I also know people who make spacecargoloads of money selling iOS apps from India. An organization I visited last week wants to build a few iOS applications. They already have a developer license. They considered Android ... for about 30 seconds. They quickly scraped all their Android plans the moment I told them they couldn't sell applications from India. I see that as a loss for Google.
- deleted 16y ago
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deleted 16y ago
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oemera 16y ago
Oh come on guys! I thought HN is better then saying 'If you don't like it then don't use it'. Do you really think that this has any value? I don't want to be harsh but since when is this constructive criticism? If you don't like this post please say WHY you don't like it and give some feedback HOW it would be better. And now some Feedback to this website. I think it's fair to mention that Developers have to pay 30% of their earnings and getting nearly nothing for it. I mean I'm thanking Google that they are hosting the Android Market but taking 30% for just hosting something isn't fair anyway. They should lower the rate or give some more support to developers. I really welcome criticism to any platform cause you can grow with it BUT without it you don't know what you are doing wrong, right? To be honest I'm mostly an iOS developer but I developed already a Android App and successfully put into the Android Market for free.
- jsnell 16y ago
  > And now some Feedback to this website. I think it's fair to mention that Developers have to pay 30% of their earnings and getting nearly nothing for it. They avoid having to pay credit card processing fees, which on a cheap app probably eat most of the 30%. They don't have to write their own payment handling code. They don't have to write and host their own download servers. They don't need to worry about things like re-authenticating downloads for users upgrading to a new device. They get their apps listed on the Market and thus have their app be discoverable in the place where most Android users will look for apps. They get access to the other Market infrastructure like in-app purchases and the licensing server. You think that's not providing any value? Then it seems pretty reasonable to suggest that you switch to the alternative that you think provides better value. After all, Android does allow for alternative app stores and for side loading of apps. > I mean I'm thanking Google that they are hosting the Android Market but taking 30% for just hosting something isn't fair anyway. That's a strange definition of "fair" you have there.
zrgiu 16y ago
Where is the request for allowing worldwide developers to sell apps ?
forgottenpaswrd 16y ago
It seems like a bad idea: The site frames the google-developers as a conflict between enemies, like unions usually do. Neither Apple or Google are getting unreasonable profits from their 30%share as they reinvest more than 90% of this money in infrastructure, as Apple had clarified a lot of times. If you make a great app, your users win,you win, and Google wins too. I bet they are too much wins for the site creator prejudices and believes. He has the mentality that for someone to win someone has to lose, the "survival" or "fight" mentality. If you sell a software application over traditional channels like retail expect getting less than 10%, as every intermediary layer doubles the price, e.g that was what the game "Commandos behind the enemy lines" got when Pyro studios gave us a talk. Steam, Amazon, Apple, O'Reilly or Google are very good opportunities for direct sales today. I'm not going to talk about the entitlement tone because other people had done already, but the "demands" I see are not the main problems Android has today, for example I don't see "Adding support for more countries in the world, like Apple does". He is focused on getting more share of the cake instead of making a bigger one, IMHO this is a bad strategy.
nuclear_eclipse 16y ago
It's ironic that when I click to expand some of the demands, Chrome 11.x consistently crashes and shows the "Aw Snap!" message. It's almost like they intended to hide the truth from me.
metageek 16y ago
Why 32% and not 30%? Is there an extra fee I'm not seeing? I have one paid app in the Market (9 sales so far!), and I'm pretty sure I got exactly 70% of the sales.
extension 16y ago
A union has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with collective bargaining. When parties negotiate as a group, they can get a better deal. The drawback is that you must dilute your own interests with those of everyone else. But when all members have roughly the same interests, it's worthwhile. All this site has to say is that the new curated app platforms are creating a huge power imbalance, and the way to even the field is to unionize. All the ideology just muddies the water and leads to endless bickering.

101 points by Mizza 16y ago

lwhi 16y ago

Is there a union for iPhone developers too?

shaggyfrog 16y ago
Pretty much every one of those points are applicable to Apple. However, I don't think it's a problem as long as most iOS developers are making a lot more money on iOS than Android. Not like anything's going to come of this lame petition anyway. If you're not making money as an Android dev, stop developing on Android. Online petitions are great for making people feel like they've actually done something, without actually making them put in any more effort than a button click.
- lwhi 16y ago
  "Pretty much every one of those points are applicable to Apple. However, I don't think it's a problem as long as most iOS developers are making a lot more money on iOS than Android." Even so, there's not a cat in hell's chance than Apple would ever submit to 'union' pressure. I don't think Google can realistically be expected behave differently.
  - boucher 16y ago
    Of course this is a silly statement. If 100% of Apple developers decided to join a union in an attempt to collectively bargain, of course Apple would negotiate. If 1% join, of course they won't. Where the tipping point lies is an open question. It's fairly unlikely that enough people would ever get on board to find out, though, given the way things have played out thus far and the existing community.
  - brisance 16y ago
    When the original iPhone came out, the only way to deliver apps was via the web. Developers wanted an iPhone SDK, and that's exactly what they got in subsequent versions, which led to the App Store's success. When Apple came out with the "no non-Objective-C" clause aka section 3.3.1 lots of people demanded that it be changed. Apple eventually relented too. So... Apple does respond to feedback.
    - shaggyfrog 16y ago
      The clause was not simply "no non-Objective-C". It allowed for C/C++/Obj-C development as long as Xcode was the tool used to produce the binary. If they had banned C and C++, a lot of games would have had to disappear, considering how many games use external libraries. Not to mention a lot of non-game apps, like those that use the SQLite package (raw, not via Core Data).
      - ZeroGravitas 16y ago
        A lot of games would have been banned either way e.g. use of Lua scripting or any 3rd party framework for cross-platform dev.
        shaggyfrog 16y ago
        Right, but that was because of a kind of prohibition on embedded scripting runtimes in general, and has nothing to do with C or C++ specifically.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
rlivsey 16y ago
If there was, I expect its website would be nicer to look at...

irfn 16y ago

Are there any online petitions that have actually worked?

lwhi 16y ago
I think the biggest effect is often being able to start (or add weight to) a conversation within a wider community (eg. specialist or mainstream media). In that respect, I think petitions can be an effective part of a marketing campaign.
dpcan 16y ago
Betty White was on SNL :)

comex 16y ago

> The current Market provides only very vague guidelines about what is and isn't acceptable content on the market. Many developers have had their applications removed without warning, without notice and without explanation. These rejections have come with no method of appeal. > We demand that Google strictly codify the rules of the Market, and that any removals must be accompanied with a complete explanation and reference to the specific rules violated, and with a formal method for appeal. Hmm, where have I heard this before?

endlessvoid94 16y ago

I generally don't have a problem with developers having conversations with companies running platforms they're building on, but come on. The sense of entitlement is sickening. Could android do things better? Sure. But to act as if Google has a responsibility to the developers is a little bit far fetched, IMHO.

nigelsampson 16y ago
Agreed, literally changing the text from "demand" to "ask" helps it come across a lot better in my opinion.
- barista 16y ago
  I think it really is an ask. It was just framed so that it is consistent with the union theme that the group is following. Otherwise, what "right" do they have to demand anything from Google? It's not like Google entered into some contract with them.
lwhi 16y ago
I think all of these corporations do have a responsibility to create reasonable conditions for developers - but I agree, these demands are quite unrealistic. Are there any other marketplaces which already grant what's being asked for?
- Mizza 16y ago
  Could you elaborate upon which demands are unrealistic? There are other marketplaces with better conditions - however, these do not come installed with any devices, rendering them fairly useless in terms of profitability.
  - lwhi 16y ago
    I think some of these demands might make operating a competitive market difficult for Google - particularly open-sourcing their market's code and implementation (Algorithmic Transparency). Perhaps Google should be encouraged to create a marketplace which provides a better user experience for customers? In terms of other marketplaces - I strongly believe that the creation of alternatives will lead to major gains for Android as a platform. If conditions are made more favourable for developers (e.g. lower commission) due to competition, and a choice of marketplaces are provided to customers (with better UX) .. all markets (including Apple's) will eventually need to come into line. I think it's good you're making your voice heard though.

drivebyacct2 16y ago

So don't use the Market?

lwhi 16y ago
Android developers actually have a choice (unlike iPhone developers) - multiple markets exist. Competition between markets could plausibly create better conditions for developers. EDIT: eg. Verizon's Android Market (V CAST) and Amazon's upcoming marketplace.
- Melkor 16y ago
  after looking at the site, i wondered where the 'made on a mac' footer was. interesting timing, considering the recent stories about the iAppstore. smells like personaware to me.
- danudey 16y ago
  I feel like this would be theoretically better for middleman publishers but much worse for non-technical end users. I have to change a setting then download an app and set up an Amazon account just so I can download another app? Too confusing. Also, the Amazon store has, as I recall, the interesting caveat of the prices all being set by Amazon in the first place. You don't even get to decide what your app is worth, which a lot of developers wouldn't care for I suspect.
metageek 16y ago
That is what they're threatening: >If our demands are not met, we will move our applications to alternative marketplaces or the web, cease Android development in favor of other more open platforms, we will dissuade other developers from developing Android projects, and we will work tirelessly to counter any of Google's hypocritical claims about Openness in the media.

dantheman 16y ago

This is just a waste of time, ughh. If you don't like the market - don't use it. There are other markets, or you could create your own. The sense of entitlement is astounding. They don't force you to use the market, give you tools and everything for free. It's unbelievable. Yes, the markets not perfect, but imho stuff like this is worse and just creates meaningless controversy and wastes everyones time.

lwhi 16y ago
I don't think it does any harm - people need an opportunity to voice their opinion and to be heard. But I think in this case, some of the demands are pretty unrealistic.
azernik 16y ago
I think that's the whole point - they're essentially threatening that without these fixes to make developing and marketing easier, they'll go and find a different platform that will meet their needs.

ryanisinallofus 16y ago

Never let another company step in between you and your customers. American manufacturers learned this and now software development has moved in the same direction. Oh well. There are still plenty of opportunities. We laugh at the demanding tone of this "union," now but I suspect there will be a time when we wish something like this took off.

patrickaljord 16y ago

What is market curation exactly?

vacri 16y ago

regarding the first point about 32% take, below is my cut'n'paste from the same issue on the Apple platform. At least on Android you can sideload. Summary: "If you want to do business, you have to pay for services. Deal with it". If you think otherwise, well, there's a market full of screaming developers with little business experience, and this is the 'home of startups' - there's a startup idea to capitalise on. ---- I don't like Apple's business practises and never have, but this 70/30 split furore is hilarious to someone who has worked in retail and supply before. It is entirely normal for a retailer (apple) to take this kind of split in the retail price and the supplier/wholesaler to take 70%. In the retail industry I worked in, the retailer took a 35-40% portion. This split is yawningly normal in retail. What's not normal is the huge numbers of "one-person" wholesalers... who have very little in the way of business experience and see that split as a "tax" rather than payment for a service.

natnat 16y ago
Apple and Google may mark their apps up less than the average department store or grocery store, but it marks them up a hell of a lot more than most highly-efficient retail operations. Walmart marks up around 20%, and Costco never marks its products up more than 14%. And actual retail stores need to pay for their property, their employees, transportation, and utilities to keep their stores running. Apple and Google have none of these expenses. Additionally, both Apple and Google only operate app stores as side businesses to help sell their high margin hardware or get people to look at ads.
- vacri 16y ago
  And don't Walmart and Costco have an excellent reputation for quality! And actual retail stores need to pay for their property, their employees, transportation, and utilities to keep their stores running. I thought someone would say this - as if developing the infrastructure and maintaining it is extremely low cost. Development of enterprise level software is expensive. Having individual reviews of every app is expensive. This is just apologism for people trying to get out of the rather humdrum retailer/wholesaler relationship.
- metageek 16y ago

colinplamondon 16y ago

This guy should be banned from the Market simply so Google doesn't have to waste oxygen looking at his support requests. Anyone who takes the time to put together a list of hard-hitting business requests like 'algorithmic transparency' is going to ever, ever, ever have a hit consumer application. The linked list isn't about making more money, it's about ideological purity.

lwhi 16y ago
Without wanting to get political - I do believe sometimes capitalism does need reigning in. Not everything has to be about making money. In any case, some of the requests relate directly to customer (developer) support - positive gains here should definitely affect profitability.
chrisrhoden 16y ago
OP is responsible for top 5 level apps in several paid categories. More importantly, one of the grievances is that Google doesn't look at support requests. Like, at all.
- logic 16y ago
  This is not exactly new behavior for them; it's just a new platform. Gmail and Apps users have dealt with this for years. Customer service and support continues to be the single biggest thing that Google gets wrong. And I say this as an unabashed Google fanboy in most other respects, at least compared to my immediate colleagues.

kefs 16y ago

What's missing from this post is the better Android Market app and ecosystem he designed and developed.. The only limiting factor is his willingness to educate himself.

makeramen 16y ago

I don't see much of a problem with the Market. Sure it could be better, but it could be a lot worse. I'd rather have them continue to spend developers' time and energy making Android competitive so we have a market to sell our apps, instead of catering to our every need.

arnorhs 16y ago

I can't believe I still can't purchase apps in the Android app store.. I only use ad-supported apps or free ones. I would love to spend money on android apps. But, I live in Iceland. Welcome to 2011.

jdp23 16y ago

It's interesting to me how many of the folks here on Hacker News disparage the developer and back the big corporation. Yay, solidarity!

ryanisinallofus 16y ago
I was thinking the same thing but knew how bad the karma police would punish me for saying it.
- jdp23 16y ago
  Yeah, I guess it's not perceived as adding anything to the conversation by pointing out that people are acting against their own self interest.
jsz0 16y ago
People defend Apple too. There's a strong free market mindset behind this. We do have choices or at least the ability to influence the market by our own choices. I don't see any problem with these folks raising some valid issues, even if they do it in less than tactful fashion, but ultimately they are fighting a losing battle. Android, in its most accessible form, is not going to be the open platform some people envisioned. Google is not going to magically become as adept as Apple at selling things. Google isn't doing these things because they want to piss off developers and neither is Apple. They're doing it because they either just don't get it or they are putting their own best interests first. I think most of us relate to this because it's the same basic choice individuals make managing their own personal/financial affairs. I'm not going to hold Google or Apple to a higher standard but I will be happy to vote with my dollars if they challenge my best interests or if some new player happens to do it better.

uptown 16y ago

I'd just be happy if the market numbers updated more frequently than every couple days. My ad impression stats update in realtime. Why can't my downloads and error stats do the same?

metageek 16y ago
Even updating at the same time every day would be nice; then I could add the developer's console to the list of links I read every morning.

hunterp 16y ago

Regarding item #4: Increased Payment Options When the official Android market went live, you can now buy apps over the browser, then even download to your phone...so this is a bit out of date.

dpcan 16y ago
He may be referring to more payment options - like PayPal. I get emails all the time from people asking if they can pay with PayPal. EDIT: And until you've sold apps in the Android Market, you don't know the pain that is the infamous RED "Payment Declined" message in Google Checkout.
- hunterp 16y ago
  I probably know the pain. I've been putting food on my table since 2009 solely from Android app development. And not for contracts either, just me vs. the market.

db42 16y ago

"our demands are not met, cease Android development in favor of other more open platforms," To other more open, like .... iOS, Windows mobile?? And, please don't say Symbian and Maemo..

GeneralMaximus 16y ago
iOS is more open than Android from where I stand. I live in India. A few months ago, I couldn't purchase Android applications. As of now, I can purchase applications but not sell them.

abraham 16y ago

> We demand that Google renegotiate this rate, either to a much lower percentage (preferably, no percentage) or give us some value for our money in terms of Market curation and support. So either lower the price or add multi week review process followed by arbitrary denials?

GeneralMaximus 16y ago

What about letting people from more countries sell applications on the Market? I know a couple of folks -- long time Mac users and developers who did not want to develop for iOS on moral grounds -- who built some breathtakingly beautiful apps for Android. Simple apps. Prototypes, meant to test the Androidian waters. Beautiful nonetheless. They are currently thinking of moving to iOS because Indian developers can't sell apps on the Market. I also know people who make spacecargoloads of money selling iOS apps from India. An organization I visited last week wants to build a few iOS applications. They already have a developer license. They considered Android ... for about 30 seconds. They quickly scraped all their Android plans the moment I told them they couldn't sell applications from India. I see that as a loss for Google.

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oemera 16y ago

Oh come on guys! I thought HN is better then saying 'If you don't like it then don't use it'. Do you really think that this has any value? I don't want to be harsh but since when is this constructive criticism? If you don't like this post please say WHY you don't like it and give some feedback HOW it would be better. And now some Feedback to this website. I think it's fair to mention that Developers have to pay 30% of their earnings and getting nearly nothing for it. I mean I'm thanking Google that they are hosting the Android Market but taking 30% for just hosting something isn't fair anyway. They should lower the rate or give some more support to developers. I really welcome criticism to any platform cause you can grow with it BUT without it you don't know what you are doing wrong, right? To be honest I'm mostly an iOS developer but I developed already a Android App and successfully put into the Android Market for free.

jsnell 16y ago
> And now some Feedback to this website. I think it's fair to mention that Developers have to pay 30% of their earnings and getting nearly nothing for it. They avoid having to pay credit card processing fees, which on a cheap app probably eat most of the 30%. They don't have to write their own payment handling code. They don't have to write and host their own download servers. They don't need to worry about things like re-authenticating downloads for users upgrading to a new device. They get their apps listed on the Market and thus have their app be discoverable in the place where most Android users will look for apps. They get access to the other Market infrastructure like in-app purchases and the licensing server. You think that's not providing any value? Then it seems pretty reasonable to suggest that you switch to the alternative that you think provides better value. After all, Android does allow for alternative app stores and for side loading of apps. > I mean I'm thanking Google that they are hosting the Android Market but taking 30% for just hosting something isn't fair anyway. That's a strange definition of "fair" you have there.

zrgiu 16y ago

Where is the request for allowing worldwide developers to sell apps ?

forgottenpaswrd 16y ago

It seems like a bad idea: The site frames the google-developers as a conflict between enemies, like unions usually do. Neither Apple or Google are getting unreasonable profits from their 30%share as they reinvest more than 90% of this money in infrastructure, as Apple had clarified a lot of times. If you make a great app, your users win,you win, and Google wins too. I bet they are too much wins for the site creator prejudices and believes. He has the mentality that for someone to win someone has to lose, the "survival" or "fight" mentality. If you sell a software application over traditional channels like retail expect getting less than 10%, as every intermediary layer doubles the price, e.g that was what the game "Commandos behind the enemy lines" got when Pyro studios gave us a talk. Steam, Amazon, Apple, O'Reilly or Google are very good opportunities for direct sales today. I'm not going to talk about the entitlement tone because other people had done already, but the "demands" I see are not the main problems Android has today, for example I don't see "Adding support for more countries in the world, like Apple does". He is focused on getting more share of the cake instead of making a bigger one, IMHO this is a bad strategy.

nuclear_eclipse 16y ago

It's ironic that when I click to expand some of the demands, Chrome 11.x consistently crashes and shows the "Aw Snap!" message. It's almost like they intended to hide the truth from me.

metageek 16y ago

Why 32% and not 30%? Is there an extra fee I'm not seeing? I have one paid app in the Market (9 sales so far!), and I'm pretty sure I got exactly 70% of the sales.

extension 16y ago

A union has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with collective bargaining. When parties negotiate as a group, they can get a better deal. The drawback is that you must dilute your own interests with those of everyone else. But when all members have roughly the same interests, it's worthwhile. All this site has to say is that the new curated app platforms are creating a huge power imbalance, and the way to even the field is to unionize. All the ideology just muddies the water and leads to endless bickering.