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Not only is nobody using bitcoin for that, bitcoin is also a negative-sum game, and no actual new wealth is created. If you were going to buy those credits, you

Not only is nobody using bitcoin for that, bitcoin is also a negative-sum game, and no actual new wealth is created. If you were going to buy those credits, you would get more if you cut bitcoin out of the equation entirely.

thebean11 7y ago
That's assuming it never creates any utility, which might be a fair assessment now but the same argument could have been made about many early stage innovations
- DagAgren 7y ago
  How many decades is it going to take for bitcoin to not be “early stage”?
  - thebean11 7y ago
    Maybe never, but just dismissing the technology as worse than useless seems a bit irrational. If your position is that the entire crypto space is just delusion, it's probably good to take a step back and consider that you are the one that's missing something.
    - DagAgren 7y ago
      I am not actually doing any of those things, even though they would all be fair to say. I am saying that the economic system built around bitcoin is, by definition, negative-sum. And there is nothing about the technology that can change that.
      - thebean11 7y ago
        Can you give an example of why an economy using bitcoin would be negative sum? If I'm producing widgets and transacting in crypto, value (widgets) are created, the transaction medium seems irrelevant to me. I don't actually think switching exclusively to a deflationary currency is a good idea, but I don't buy that it creates a situation where value can only be destroyed..
        DagAgren 7y ago
        The only input of wealth is people buying tokens on the market. The only output is people selling tokens on the market. There is a constant drain of this wealth from both market fees and from miners minting new coins and cashing them out. There is no wealth creation anywhere else in this system. There are only these factors, and they are negative-sum, except for market operators and miners. If you are producing widgets on the side, that is entirely unrelated to the token market. You can do that with any currency, and it is entirely orthogonal to the tokens. You are not creating wealth within that market, you are creating it outside that market, and possibly transferring it into as a separate step, to be siphoned off by market operators and miners.
        thebean11 7y ago
        Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "the economic system built around bitcoin", I thought you meant "the economy if bitcoin were adopted would be negative sum". Now that I understand your point: how is this different from any currency? Currencies are a medium of exchange, by definition they don't have intrinsic value. The value is defined by what you can buy. They are simply a convenient accounting system for value, not the source of value. How does your argument not apply to every other currency?
        DagAgren 7y ago
        Currencies do not exist in a vacuum, like bitcoin, it is an instrument of an entire country's economy. There is wealth created inside that economy, unlike bitcoin.
        thebean11 7y ago
        Right that's exactly my point, you're critiquing bitcoin as an alternative to the "economy" part, but that's not something it has ever claimed to be. It's an alternative for the "currency" part.
        7y ago

thebean11 7y ago

That's assuming it never creates any utility, which might be a fair assessment now but the same argument could have been made about many early stage innovations

DagAgren 7y ago
How many decades is it going to take for bitcoin to not be “early stage”?
- thebean11 7y ago
  Maybe never, but just dismissing the technology as worse than useless seems a bit irrational. If your position is that the entire crypto space is just delusion, it's probably good to take a step back and consider that you are the one that's missing something.
  - DagAgren 7y ago
    I am not actually doing any of those things, even though they would all be fair to say. I am saying that the economic system built around bitcoin is, by definition, negative-sum. And there is nothing about the technology that can change that.
    - thebean11 7y ago
      Can you give an example of why an economy using bitcoin would be negative sum? If I'm producing widgets and transacting in crypto, value (widgets) are created, the transaction medium seems irrelevant to me. I don't actually think switching exclusively to a deflationary currency is a good idea, but I don't buy that it creates a situation where value can only be destroyed..
      - DagAgren 7y ago
        The only input of wealth is people buying tokens on the market. The only output is people selling tokens on the market. There is a constant drain of this wealth from both market fees and from miners minting new coins and cashing them out. There is no wealth creation anywhere else in this system. There are only these factors, and they are negative-sum, except for market operators and miners. If you are producing widgets on the side, that is entirely unrelated to the token market. You can do that with any currency, and it is entirely orthogonal to the tokens. You are not creating wealth within that market, you are creating it outside that market, and possibly transferring it into as a separate step, to be siphoned off by market operators and miners.
        thebean11 7y ago
        Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "the economic system built around bitcoin", I thought you meant "the economy if bitcoin were adopted would be negative sum". Now that I understand your point: how is this different from any currency? Currencies are a medium of exchange, by definition they don't have intrinsic value. The value is defined by what you can buy. They are simply a convenient accounting system for value, not the source of value. How does your argument not apply to every other currency?
        DagAgren 7y ago
        Currencies do not exist in a vacuum, like bitcoin, it is an instrument of an entire country's economy. There is wealth created inside that economy, unlike bitcoin.
        thebean11 7y ago
        Right that's exactly my point, you're critiquing bitcoin as an alternative to the "economy" part, but that's not something it has ever claimed to be. It's an alternative for the "currency" part.
        7y ago