11 ms·

A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

62 points by okareaman 7y ago

fermienrico 7y ago
Curious questions: Are we converting increase in thermodynamic entropy with decrease in information entropy (with some loss)? What if we use bitcoins mined by renewable resources (for e.g. Hydroelectric generator) to purchase carbon credits? What would the energy balance and economics look like?
- solotronics 7y ago
  Already this is happening in a roundabout way. Much of the bitcoin mining is unused hydroelectric in China, they are using the excess power that is basically free.
sam_lowry_ 7y ago
Wat a shame!
beautifulfreak 7y ago
The server farm currently consumes 14 megawatts of the 106 megawatts of Greenidge's capacity. That's enough electricity to power well over 11,000 average U.S. homes.
- beamatronic 7y ago
  It’s fascinating, such a machine, so much power, with no visible (tangible) output. Other than heat.
  - NullPrefix 7y ago
    Wait, are we still talking about the economy?
  - BenjiWiebe 7y ago
    It's a 100% efficient 14MW electric heater.
mooneater 7y ago
Waste
speedgoose 7y ago
I think everyone involved in this project should be ashamed. Energy shouldn't be wasted into bruteforcing sha1 checksums of lists of transactions, a hash of a previous block to have a neat Merkle tree, and random data to find checksums starting with enough zeros. This is so unnecessary when we have global warming and much better things to do with our energy budget.
- solotronics 7y ago
  People have found bitcoin valuable to them. There are a million other things people spend money (energy) on that are just as wasteful if not more. Why not eliminate movie theaters, air conditioning, travel, sports? People should be free to do as they please and this is all enabled by energy.
  - speedgoose 7y ago
    It's all about finding a balance. Some people think we should reduce our energy consumption but still maintain a good quality of life. We could cut the energy consumption of bitcoin to zero and the quality of life of everyone would not change at all.
    - renewiltord 7y ago
      That's not true. There are people who are making a living of trading Bitcoin whose lives will deteriorate. Since Bitcoin only functions when it's hard, cutting the energy consumption means cutting the thing. And attempting to control things like this is a whack-a-mole expedition. If you'd like to account for the carbon externalities, then do so. Tax carbon emissions. Proxy by purchases of fossil fuels if you have to. The reason we don't do that is that most people are rampant polluters. They know it, because when you put the numbers up, we know something interesting: most of those attempting to shame others here are rampant polluters, emitting large multiples of the median human's carbon. The truth is you can't maintain the standard of life you're talking about at the emissions necessary. Shame doesn't work here. Only policy. Tax the carbon if that's what you don't like. Tax the sound if that's what you don't like. Tax the land on its value if you think this is an uneconomical use of the land. But shaming is ineffective. You will walk away with the dopamine rush of outrage, having achieved nothing of note.
Reason077 7y ago
> "The plant used to only open at peak times in the summer and winter months; the new mining initiative means it now operates all year round." This is actually pretty sad. This isn't power that would otherwise be wasted: they are emitting more pollution and greenhouse gasses in order to mine Bitcoins. Bitcoin has created a perverse incentive to pollute here.
- gruez 7y ago
  Not any different than dumping massive amounts of cyanide into the environment so we can get some shinny yellow rocks.
  - jeromegv 7y ago
    That doesn’t make it better. Both are bad.
    - throwaway894345 7y ago
      You and the GP are in agreement with each other and in disagreement with the OP's claim that Bitcoin created this perverse incentive--the incentive to externalize pollution costs has its origins in the Bronze Age or sooner. Bitcoin is further exploiting this incentive.
  - ryguytilidie 7y ago
    Why do people find it necessary to argue like this? As if we can't solve ANY problems until every single problem is solved.
    - jshevek 7y ago
      The parent noted a similarity. They did not argue for inaction or acceptance. Edit: For example, it could be interpreted as an argument to be more mindful of gold extraction externalities. My beef with the statement lies in "not any different". Having qualities in common doesn't preclude differences. In this case, there are differences.
dmos62 7y ago
The opposite situation would be where we'd redirect excess nuclear energy (or other energy that can't be throttled easily) to mining BTC. That would be pretty OK in my opinion. Though I hope that future of crypto is more energy-efficient consesus mechanisms. As far as redirecting excess energy goes, there are surely better uses too.
MadSudaca 7y ago
Reminder: not all cryptocurrencies are this wasteful. Don’t disregard cryptos in general for the pitfalls of the first one.
- jessaustin 7y ago
  Why can't the less "wasteful" currencies compete with bitcoin? (serious question; I've never owned it and though the crypto seems straightforward enough I don't feel I understand the market in general)
  - MadSudaca 7y ago
    Several reasons. There have been to many scam projects so it’s hard for most people to separate wheat from shaft. Bitcoin is oldest and therefore the most accessible one, with more ways to buy it and trade it. Finally, there’s vested interests that help keep the status quo as it is. For example, miners who have invested capital in mining equipment and who wish to keep making a profit.
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      It's normally "separate the wheat from the chaff". But "from the shaft" seems particularly appropriate, given that you were talking about scams...
      - MadSudaca 7y ago
        Thanks, this is embarrassing haha. I won’t forget how to spell chaff now.
    - jessaustin 7y ago
      The first several reasons seem plausible; the last one does not. It isn't clear why the cryptocurrency community would care about others' investments in mining equipment. If I had made such investments, I would use bitcoin, but that wouldn't force anyone else to use it.
ilamont 7y ago
Not just in the Finger Lakes. Various firms have set up shop in northern NY near the St. Lawrence River to access cheap power. Two years ago, authorities became concerned because of the impact on residential rates: “[These] companies are using extraordinary amounts of electricity — typically thousands of times more electricity than an average residential customer would use. While such a significant amount of electricity usage might go unnoticed in large metropolitan areas, the sheer amount of electricity being used is leading to higher costs for customers in small communities because of a limited supply of low-cost hydropower,” according to the New York State Public Service Commission. https://www.northcountrynow.com/business/blockchain-industries-pulling-out-massena-nypa-moratorium-puts-coinmint-plans-jeopardy https://www.northcountrynow.com/business/blockchain-industri... After NY state authorities set higher rates for crypto mining, one of the local communities withdrew from the local power agency so it could set its own rates, which has prompted at least one company (Coinmint) to announce plans to relocate there. https://northcountrynow.com/business/cryptocurrency-mining-company-will-move-plattsburgh-operation-massena-winter-0268560 https://northcountrynow.com/business/cryptocurrency-mining-c...
RichardHeart 7y ago
Imagine how much pollution Bitcoin would create a day if it became 10x more valuable. Roughly 10x. This is because the cost to mine a resource trends towards the value of a resource. Disclaimer. I invented a cryptocurrency that pays stakers inflation instead of miners.
- cmer 7y ago
  https://thedailychain.com/the-rise-and-fall-of-hex-the-quickest-scam-of-the-decade/ https://thedailychain.com/the-rise-and-fall-of-hex-the-quick...
  - RichardHeart 7y ago
    You probably want to delete that link lol. Check the facts.
idclip 7y ago
The comments in this thread ... Well for what its worth, i think its a bit weird theyre doing this - and hope we get fusion power soon.
jes5199 7y ago
oh huh it’s really happening. I’ve been trying to work out the effects of this for a while - bitcoin will always be more profitable than curtailment, but supply and demand should push the cost of bitcoin down below most other uses of electricity... except in places where the generators are distant from other kinds of capital. But some of those bitcoins will probably go towards buying other kinds of equipment by the power company? (direct air capture to high value molecules, eventually, I hope.) If the cost of utility power gets inflated, more people will buy solar panels.... lowering demand? It’s complicated!
econcon 7y ago
But if they use the heat to heat homes isn't this a good use?
- speedgoose 7y ago
  It's better to use heat pumps.
kemonocode 7y ago
HN is very Bitcoin and cryptocurrency in general-hostile so I'm not going to debate about how bad it is or isn't for the environment or set up a strawman with gold mining. However, I'll say this: in a world where Bitcoin did not exist, I don't really think that power plant would have remained idle.
bitcoinmining 7y ago
The easiest way to earn Bitcoins? Just change your browser to CryptoTab and receive payments to your balance every 10 minutes. You will get BTC for simply using it, even if just having CryptoTab browser window open. It takes less than 1 minute to start earning - Hey, everybody! Check out the brand new CryptoTab browser! You just use it like a regular browser (watch Youtube, browse websites or social media networks, etc.) and earn income in BTC at the same time thanks to its built-in mining algorithm! Hi friends! I want to share with you something totally new and incredibly simple - CryptoTab Browser, a great browser with familiar Chromium interface and nice mining feature. The best thing about it is that you can you earn Bitcoins by just browsing the web and bringing new users in. Sounds too good to be true, but it is! Try it here - https://inorangepie.biz/10323306 https://inorangepie.biz/10323306

62 points by okareaman 7y ago

Curious questions: Are we converting increase in thermodynamic entropy with decrease in information entropy (with some loss)? What if we use bitcoins mined by renewable resources (for e.g. Hydroelectric generator) to purchase carbon credits? What would the energy balance and economics look like?

solotronics 7y ago
Already this is happening in a roundabout way. Much of the bitcoin mining is unused hydroelectric in China, they are using the excess power that is basically free.

sam_lowry_ 7y ago

Wat a shame!

beautifulfreak 7y ago

The server farm currently consumes 14 megawatts of the 106 megawatts of Greenidge's capacity. That's enough electricity to power well over 11,000 average U.S. homes.

beamatronic 7y ago
It’s fascinating, such a machine, so much power, with no visible (tangible) output. Other than heat.
- NullPrefix 7y ago
  Wait, are we still talking about the economy?
- BenjiWiebe 7y ago
  It's a 100% efficient 14MW electric heater.

mooneater 7y ago

Waste

speedgoose 7y ago

I think everyone involved in this project should be ashamed. Energy shouldn't be wasted into bruteforcing sha1 checksums of lists of transactions, a hash of a previous block to have a neat Merkle tree, and random data to find checksums starting with enough zeros. This is so unnecessary when we have global warming and much better things to do with our energy budget.

solotronics 7y ago
People have found bitcoin valuable to them. There are a million other things people spend money (energy) on that are just as wasteful if not more. Why not eliminate movie theaters, air conditioning, travel, sports? People should be free to do as they please and this is all enabled by energy.
- speedgoose 7y ago
  It's all about finding a balance. Some people think we should reduce our energy consumption but still maintain a good quality of life. We could cut the energy consumption of bitcoin to zero and the quality of life of everyone would not change at all.
  - renewiltord 7y ago
    That's not true. There are people who are making a living of trading Bitcoin whose lives will deteriorate. Since Bitcoin only functions when it's hard, cutting the energy consumption means cutting the thing. And attempting to control things like this is a whack-a-mole expedition. If you'd like to account for the carbon externalities, then do so. Tax carbon emissions. Proxy by purchases of fossil fuels if you have to. The reason we don't do that is that most people are rampant polluters. They know it, because when you put the numbers up, we know something interesting: most of those attempting to shame others here are rampant polluters, emitting large multiples of the median human's carbon. The truth is you can't maintain the standard of life you're talking about at the emissions necessary. Shame doesn't work here. Only policy. Tax the carbon if that's what you don't like. Tax the sound if that's what you don't like. Tax the land on its value if you think this is an uneconomical use of the land. But shaming is ineffective. You will walk away with the dopamine rush of outrage, having achieved nothing of note.

Reason077 7y ago

> "The plant used to only open at peak times in the summer and winter months; the new mining initiative means it now operates all year round." This is actually pretty sad. This isn't power that would otherwise be wasted: they are emitting more pollution and greenhouse gasses in order to mine Bitcoins. Bitcoin has created a perverse incentive to pollute here.

gruez 7y ago
Not any different than dumping massive amounts of cyanide into the environment so we can get some shinny yellow rocks.
- jeromegv 7y ago
  That doesn’t make it better. Both are bad.
  - throwaway894345 7y ago
    You and the GP are in agreement with each other and in disagreement with the OP's claim that Bitcoin created this perverse incentive--the incentive to externalize pollution costs has its origins in the Bronze Age or sooner. Bitcoin is further exploiting this incentive.
- ryguytilidie 7y ago
  Why do people find it necessary to argue like this? As if we can't solve ANY problems until every single problem is solved.
  - jshevek 7y ago
    The parent noted a similarity. They did not argue for inaction or acceptance. Edit: For example, it could be interpreted as an argument to be more mindful of gold extraction externalities. My beef with the statement lies in "not any different". Having qualities in common doesn't preclude differences. In this case, there are differences.

dmos62 7y ago

The opposite situation would be where we'd redirect excess nuclear energy (or other energy that can't be throttled easily) to mining BTC. That would be pretty OK in my opinion. Though I hope that future of crypto is more energy-efficient consesus mechanisms. As far as redirecting excess energy goes, there are surely better uses too.

MadSudaca 7y ago

Reminder: not all cryptocurrencies are this wasteful. Don’t disregard cryptos in general for the pitfalls of the first one.

jessaustin 7y ago
Why can't the less "wasteful" currencies compete with bitcoin? (serious question; I've never owned it and though the crypto seems straightforward enough I don't feel I understand the market in general)
- MadSudaca 7y ago
  Several reasons. There have been to many scam projects so it’s hard for most people to separate wheat from shaft. Bitcoin is oldest and therefore the most accessible one, with more ways to buy it and trade it. Finally, there’s vested interests that help keep the status quo as it is. For example, miners who have invested capital in mining equipment and who wish to keep making a profit.
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    It's normally "separate the wheat from the chaff". But "from the shaft" seems particularly appropriate, given that you were talking about scams...
    - MadSudaca 7y ago
      Thanks, this is embarrassing haha. I won’t forget how to spell chaff now.
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    The first several reasons seem plausible; the last one does not. It isn't clear why the cryptocurrency community would care about others' investments in mining equipment. If I had made such investments, I would use bitcoin, but that wouldn't force anyone else to use it.

ilamont 7y ago

Not just in the Finger Lakes. Various firms have set up shop in northern NY near the St. Lawrence River to access cheap power. Two years ago, authorities became concerned because of the impact on residential rates: “[These] companies are using extraordinary amounts of electricity — typically thousands of times more electricity than an average residential customer would use. While such a significant amount of electricity usage might go unnoticed in large metropolitan areas, the sheer amount of electricity being used is leading to higher costs for customers in small communities because of a limited supply of low-cost hydropower,” according to the New York State Public Service Commission. https://www.northcountrynow.com/business/blockchain-industries-pulling-out-massena-nypa-moratorium-puts-coinmint-plans-jeopardy https://www.northcountrynow.com/business/blockchain-industri... After NY state authorities set higher rates for crypto mining, one of the local communities withdrew from the local power agency so it could set its own rates, which has prompted at least one company (Coinmint) to announce plans to relocate there. https://northcountrynow.com/business/cryptocurrency-mining-company-will-move-plattsburgh-operation-massena-winter-0268560 https://northcountrynow.com/business/cryptocurrency-mining-c...

RichardHeart 7y ago

Imagine how much pollution Bitcoin would create a day if it became 10x more valuable. Roughly 10x. This is because the cost to mine a resource trends towards the value of a resource. Disclaimer. I invented a cryptocurrency that pays stakers inflation instead of miners.

cmer 7y ago
https://thedailychain.com/the-rise-and-fall-of-hex-the-quickest-scam-of-the-decade/ https://thedailychain.com/the-rise-and-fall-of-hex-the-quick...
- RichardHeart 7y ago
  You probably want to delete that link lol. Check the facts.

idclip 7y ago

The comments in this thread ... Well for what its worth, i think its a bit weird theyre doing this - and hope we get fusion power soon.

jes5199 7y ago

oh huh it’s really happening. I’ve been trying to work out the effects of this for a while - bitcoin will always be more profitable than curtailment, but supply and demand should push the cost of bitcoin down below most other uses of electricity... except in places where the generators are distant from other kinds of capital. But some of those bitcoins will probably go towards buying other kinds of equipment by the power company? (direct air capture to high value molecules, eventually, I hope.) If the cost of utility power gets inflated, more people will buy solar panels.... lowering demand? It’s complicated!

econcon 7y ago

But if they use the heat to heat homes isn't this a good use?

speedgoose 7y ago
It's better to use heat pumps.

kemonocode 7y ago

HN is very Bitcoin and cryptocurrency in general-hostile so I'm not going to debate about how bad it is or isn't for the environment or set up a strawman with gold mining. However, I'll say this: in a world where Bitcoin did not exist, I don't really think that power plant would have remained idle.

bitcoinmining 7y ago

The easiest way to earn Bitcoins? Just change your browser to CryptoTab and receive payments to your balance every 10 minutes. You will get BTC for simply using it, even if just having CryptoTab browser window open. It takes less than 1 minute to start earning - Hey, everybody! Check out the brand new CryptoTab browser! You just use it like a regular browser (watch Youtube, browse websites or social media networks, etc.) and earn income in BTC at the same time thanks to its built-in mining algorithm! Hi friends! I want to share with you something totally new and incredibly simple - CryptoTab Browser, a great browser with familiar Chromium interface and nice mining feature. The best thing about it is that you can you earn Bitcoins by just browsing the web and bringing new users in. Sounds too good to be true, but it is! Try it here - https://inorangepie.biz/10323306 https://inorangepie.biz/10323306