4 ms·

Do you sincerely believe that people are so stupid that even if you give them instructions, wearing masks will be a net negative?

DanBC 7y ago
It's not about whether people are stupid or not. It's that donning and doffing PPE is difficult. We know that qualified, registered, trained, healthcare professionals struggle with it. Already in this thread we've seen someone post a link to a video about putting on and taking off a face mask and that video had incorrect, dangerous, procedure. This video shows him using bare hands to touch the front of his mask to take it off. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776002 Literature suggests that 80% of HCP infection is caused by incorrect doffing https://twitter.com/drbencb/status/1236635924274057216?s=20 https://twitter.com/drbencb/status/1236635924274057216?s=20 https://twitter.com/cmac_evans/status/1236689340123754496?s=20 https://twitter.com/cmac_evans/status/1236689340123754496?s=... Because it's so hard we see healthcare settings strongly encouraging "dofficers" / "spotters" -- a second person to watch you taking off your PPE to make sure you're doing it right. https://twitter.com/heatherevansmd/status/1244432369622417410?s=20 https://twitter.com/heatherevansmd/status/124443236962241741... https://twitter.com/Dolores_McKeen/status/1244327891430707202?s=20 https://twitter.com/Dolores_McKeen/status/124432789143070720...
- wavepruner 7y ago
  People who do not work in healthcare are perfectly capable of learning how to doff properly. Qualifications and training in ancillary issues does not matter. Training in mask donning/doffing is what matters, and anyone can be trained in this. Most people have someone in their life they can ask to spot them as they practice removing their mask. Also, wouldn't washing/disinfecting your hands after improper doffing prevent self-contamination?
- cameldrv 7y ago
  You make a lot of good points, but I believe they are somewhat overstated for the community case as opposed to say an Intensivist intubating someone. The amount of virus exposure is quite different. If the average person reduces exposure 90%, this is a huge win. If an ICU doc reduces exposure 90%, he gets infected the first day. Duffing protocol is very important if your PPE is massively contaminated. I’m not as convinced if you may have been breathed on by a carrier at the supermarket.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    > The amount of virus exposure is quite different That's what the CDC previously said! This post is you agreeing with the CDC.
    - cameldrv 7y ago
      What the CDC said was that the level of risk was not high enough to warrant non HCWs to wear N95 masks. If you're an HCW, no question, you had better be PPEing up to the max and following donning and duffing procedures to a T. You have huge exposure, and if you screw up, you're very likely to catch COVID. If the level of risk is so high that I am not legally allowed to leave my house except for specified purposes, you would have to be utterly foolish to think that wearing the best mask available to you is not an utterly obviously correct precaution. You really need to be incredibly gullible to not see this. If you're not an HCW, in March, as an American, you had about a 1/1000 chance of being a LAB CONFIRMED case of COVID. 1000 people are dying every day of this in America, and the numbers keep going up. If this continues, we will have millions of deaths from COVID. Being an HCW now is like being a Formula 1 driver. You had better have a crapload of safety gear, and even then your risk is very high. Your chance of dying in a car accident in the next month is roughly 1/500,000. Your chance of dying of COVID next month is perhaps 1/1000. That's 500x the risk of driving. Your argument comes down to "Well, since you're not driving in a Formula One race, there's no need to put on your seatbelt." If you wouldn't dream of getting behind the wheel without a seatbelt, why would you go outside without a mask when the risk is 500x higher?

DanBC 7y ago

It's not about whether people are stupid or not. It's that donning and doffing PPE is difficult. We know that qualified, registered, trained, healthcare professionals struggle with it. Already in this thread we've seen someone post a link to a video about putting on and taking off a face mask and that video had incorrect, dangerous, procedure. This video shows him using bare hands to touch the front of his mask to take it off. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776002 Literature suggests that 80% of HCP infection is caused by incorrect doffing https://twitter.com/drbencb/status/1236635924274057216?s=20 https://twitter.com/drbencb/status/1236635924274057216?s=20 https://twitter.com/cmac_evans/status/1236689340123754496?s=20 https://twitter.com/cmac_evans/status/1236689340123754496?s=... Because it's so hard we see healthcare settings strongly encouraging "dofficers" / "spotters" -- a second person to watch you taking off your PPE to make sure you're doing it right. https://twitter.com/heatherevansmd/status/1244432369622417410?s=20 https://twitter.com/heatherevansmd/status/124443236962241741... https://twitter.com/Dolores_McKeen/status/1244327891430707202?s=20 https://twitter.com/Dolores_McKeen/status/124432789143070720...

wavepruner 7y ago
People who do not work in healthcare are perfectly capable of learning how to doff properly. Qualifications and training in ancillary issues does not matter. Training in mask donning/doffing is what matters, and anyone can be trained in this. Most people have someone in their life they can ask to spot them as they practice removing their mask. Also, wouldn't washing/disinfecting your hands after improper doffing prevent self-contamination?
cameldrv 7y ago
You make a lot of good points, but I believe they are somewhat overstated for the community case as opposed to say an Intensivist intubating someone. The amount of virus exposure is quite different. If the average person reduces exposure 90%, this is a huge win. If an ICU doc reduces exposure 90%, he gets infected the first day. Duffing protocol is very important if your PPE is massively contaminated. I’m not as convinced if you may have been breathed on by a carrier at the supermarket.
- DanBC 7y ago
  > The amount of virus exposure is quite different That's what the CDC previously said! This post is you agreeing with the CDC.
  - cameldrv 7y ago
    What the CDC said was that the level of risk was not high enough to warrant non HCWs to wear N95 masks. If you're an HCW, no question, you had better be PPEing up to the max and following donning and duffing procedures to a T. You have huge exposure, and if you screw up, you're very likely to catch COVID. If the level of risk is so high that I am not legally allowed to leave my house except for specified purposes, you would have to be utterly foolish to think that wearing the best mask available to you is not an utterly obviously correct precaution. You really need to be incredibly gullible to not see this. If you're not an HCW, in March, as an American, you had about a 1/1000 chance of being a LAB CONFIRMED case of COVID. 1000 people are dying every day of this in America, and the numbers keep going up. If this continues, we will have millions of deaths from COVID. Being an HCW now is like being a Formula 1 driver. You had better have a crapload of safety gear, and even then your risk is very high. Your chance of dying in a car accident in the next month is roughly 1/500,000. Your chance of dying of COVID next month is perhaps 1/1000. That's 500x the risk of driving. Your argument comes down to "Well, since you're not driving in a Formula One race, there's no need to put on your seatbelt." If you wouldn't dream of getting behind the wheel without a seatbelt, why would you go outside without a mask when the risk is 500x higher?