4 ms·

> It's not rocket science. Tell us how to correctly don and doff a surgical mask, or a filter, and we can tell you how many steps you got wrong.

by DanBC 7y ago

exolymph 7y ago
Do you sincerely believe that people are so stupid that even if you give them instructions, wearing masks will be a net negative?
- DanBC 7y ago
  It's not about whether people are stupid or not. It's that donning and doffing PPE is difficult. We know that qualified, registered, trained, healthcare professionals struggle with it. Already in this thread we've seen someone post a link to a video about putting on and taking off a face mask and that video had incorrect, dangerous, procedure. This video shows him using bare hands to touch the front of his mask to take it off. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776002 Literature suggests that 80% of HCP infection is caused by incorrect doffing https://twitter.com/drbencb/status/1236635924274057216?s=20 https://twitter.com/drbencb/status/1236635924274057216?s=20 https://twitter.com/cmac_evans/status/1236689340123754496?s=20 https://twitter.com/cmac_evans/status/1236689340123754496?s=... Because it's so hard we see healthcare settings strongly encouraging "dofficers" / "spotters" -- a second person to watch you taking off your PPE to make sure you're doing it right. https://twitter.com/heatherevansmd/status/1244432369622417410?s=20 https://twitter.com/heatherevansmd/status/124443236962241741... https://twitter.com/Dolores_McKeen/status/1244327891430707202?s=20 https://twitter.com/Dolores_McKeen/status/124432789143070720...
  - wavepruner 7y ago
    People who do not work in healthcare are perfectly capable of learning how to doff properly. Qualifications and training in ancillary issues does not matter. Training in mask donning/doffing is what matters, and anyone can be trained in this. Most people have someone in their life they can ask to spot them as they practice removing their mask. Also, wouldn't washing/disinfecting your hands after improper doffing prevent self-contamination?
  - cameldrv 7y ago
    You make a lot of good points, but I believe they are somewhat overstated for the community case as opposed to say an Intensivist intubating someone. The amount of virus exposure is quite different. If the average person reduces exposure 90%, this is a huge win. If an ICU doc reduces exposure 90%, he gets infected the first day. Duffing protocol is very important if your PPE is massively contaminated. I’m not as convinced if you may have been breathed on by a carrier at the supermarket.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      > The amount of virus exposure is quite different That's what the CDC previously said! This post is you agreeing with the CDC.
      - cameldrv 7y ago
        What the CDC said was that the level of risk was not high enough to warrant non HCWs to wear N95 masks. If you're an HCW, no question, you had better be PPEing up to the max and following donning and duffing procedures to a T. You have huge exposure, and if you screw up, you're very likely to catch COVID. If the level of risk is so high that I am not legally allowed to leave my house except for specified purposes, you would have to be utterly foolish to think that wearing the best mask available to you is not an utterly obviously correct precaution. You really need to be incredibly gullible to not see this. If you're not an HCW, in March, as an American, you had about a 1/1000 chance of being a LAB CONFIRMED case of COVID. 1000 people are dying every day of this in America, and the numbers keep going up. If this continues, we will have millions of deaths from COVID. Being an HCW now is like being a Formula 1 driver. You had better have a crapload of safety gear, and even then your risk is very high. Your chance of dying in a car accident in the next month is roughly 1/500,000. Your chance of dying of COVID next month is perhaps 1/1000. That's 500x the risk of driving. Your argument comes down to "Well, since you're not driving in a Formula One race, there's no need to put on your seatbelt." If you wouldn't dream of getting behind the wheel without a seatbelt, why would you go outside without a mask when the risk is 500x higher?
mindslight 7y ago
1. Wash hands thoroughly. 2. Take off mask. 3. Wash hands thoroughly. The main point is to wash your hands in between each hand touching things of different contamination levels (eg mask body and back of head). One's implementation may not be perfect, but it's much better to attempt, practice, and slowly get better - rather than succumbing to do-nothing disinformation being pushed by western governments caught without the will to stockpile and procure enough PPE.
- DanBC 7y ago
  It's really weird to see people reject the clear science and whole-heartedly accept conspiracy theory bullshit. You got the doffing procedure wrong btw.
  - mindslight 7y ago
    What are you saying is wrong specifically? Even that bad-example video someone linked of directly grabbing the filter should not be a problem if you wash your hands afterwards. FWIW I use a 3M 7503 with discrete filters so there is a mask body to grab that is not the filter. Obviously other PPE (eg gloves) requires appropriate interleaving, but we're just focusing on masks here. What "clear science" are you referencing? I have not seen data demonstrating that individual mask use increases the chance of infection, which would be necessary to argue against individuals wearing masks on its own merits. Please share if you have it. In general, calling something a "conspiracy theory" is fallacious. From what I've seen, the intellectual argument underlying the "no masks" narrative is that individual mask use will "take away" from hospitals. When compared to other countries (eg: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776614), this is patently ridiculous.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      > What are you saying is wrong specifically? I'm saying that donning PPE is hard, and that members of the public can't do it. They usually miss out several hand washing steps, or they don items in the wrong order, or they don't have a safe place to doff items. You've said "wash your hands" -- you do that by touching taps/faucets. Most people would have to open a few doors to get to the taps. Now all those door handles, and the taps, are contaminated, so you need to clean them too. > FWIW I use a 3M 7503 with discrete filters so there is a mask body to grab The entire front face of that filter is to be regarded as contaminated. You must not touch it when doffing the mask. People in this thread are claiming that one use of the mask is to prevent infected people from infecting others, but this mask has an exhalation valve, so it doesn't stop infected droplets leaving the person wearing it. Masks provide marginal benefits to people walking around in public, but only if they're worn absolutely correctly. As soon as people deviate from the rigorous protocols those marginal benefits disappear. Worse, there's a chance that they increase risk. If people are touching their masks but not immediately washing their hands, or they are touching their face to adjust their mask then the mask is causing harm. > From what I've seen, the intellectual argument underlying the "no masks" narrative is that individual mask use will "take away" from hospitals WHO, CDC, PHE, etc have all been pretty clear that masks don't provide any benefit to members of the public. This thread is full of paranoid nonsense that this was a deliberate lie by the CDC/WHO to preserve stocks.

> It's not rocket science. Tell us how to correctly don and doff a surgical mask, or a filter, and we can tell you how many steps you got wrong.

by DanBC 7y ago

> It's not rocket science. Tell us how to correctly don and doff a surgical mask, or a filter, and we can tell you how many steps you got wrong.

exolymph 7y ago

Do you sincerely believe that people are so stupid that even if you give them instructions, wearing masks will be a net negative?

DanBC 7y ago
It's not about whether people are stupid or not. It's that donning and doffing PPE is difficult. We know that qualified, registered, trained, healthcare professionals struggle with it. Already in this thread we've seen someone post a link to a video about putting on and taking off a face mask and that video had incorrect, dangerous, procedure. This video shows him using bare hands to touch the front of his mask to take it off. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776002 Literature suggests that 80% of HCP infection is caused by incorrect doffing https://twitter.com/drbencb/status/1236635924274057216?s=20 https://twitter.com/drbencb/status/1236635924274057216?s=20 https://twitter.com/cmac_evans/status/1236689340123754496?s=20 https://twitter.com/cmac_evans/status/1236689340123754496?s=... Because it's so hard we see healthcare settings strongly encouraging "dofficers" / "spotters" -- a second person to watch you taking off your PPE to make sure you're doing it right. https://twitter.com/heatherevansmd/status/1244432369622417410?s=20 https://twitter.com/heatherevansmd/status/124443236962241741... https://twitter.com/Dolores_McKeen/status/1244327891430707202?s=20 https://twitter.com/Dolores_McKeen/status/124432789143070720...
- wavepruner 7y ago
  People who do not work in healthcare are perfectly capable of learning how to doff properly. Qualifications and training in ancillary issues does not matter. Training in mask donning/doffing is what matters, and anyone can be trained in this. Most people have someone in their life they can ask to spot them as they practice removing their mask. Also, wouldn't washing/disinfecting your hands after improper doffing prevent self-contamination?
- cameldrv 7y ago
  You make a lot of good points, but I believe they are somewhat overstated for the community case as opposed to say an Intensivist intubating someone. The amount of virus exposure is quite different. If the average person reduces exposure 90%, this is a huge win. If an ICU doc reduces exposure 90%, he gets infected the first day. Duffing protocol is very important if your PPE is massively contaminated. I’m not as convinced if you may have been breathed on by a carrier at the supermarket.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    > The amount of virus exposure is quite different That's what the CDC previously said! This post is you agreeing with the CDC.
    - cameldrv 7y ago
      What the CDC said was that the level of risk was not high enough to warrant non HCWs to wear N95 masks. If you're an HCW, no question, you had better be PPEing up to the max and following donning and duffing procedures to a T. You have huge exposure, and if you screw up, you're very likely to catch COVID. If the level of risk is so high that I am not legally allowed to leave my house except for specified purposes, you would have to be utterly foolish to think that wearing the best mask available to you is not an utterly obviously correct precaution. You really need to be incredibly gullible to not see this. If you're not an HCW, in March, as an American, you had about a 1/1000 chance of being a LAB CONFIRMED case of COVID. 1000 people are dying every day of this in America, and the numbers keep going up. If this continues, we will have millions of deaths from COVID. Being an HCW now is like being a Formula 1 driver. You had better have a crapload of safety gear, and even then your risk is very high. Your chance of dying in a car accident in the next month is roughly 1/500,000. Your chance of dying of COVID next month is perhaps 1/1000. That's 500x the risk of driving. Your argument comes down to "Well, since you're not driving in a Formula One race, there's no need to put on your seatbelt." If you wouldn't dream of getting behind the wheel without a seatbelt, why would you go outside without a mask when the risk is 500x higher?

mindslight 7y ago

1. Wash hands thoroughly. 2. Take off mask. 3. Wash hands thoroughly. The main point is to wash your hands in between each hand touching things of different contamination levels (eg mask body and back of head). One's implementation may not be perfect, but it's much better to attempt, practice, and slowly get better - rather than succumbing to do-nothing disinformation being pushed by western governments caught without the will to stockpile and procure enough PPE.

DanBC 7y ago
It's really weird to see people reject the clear science and whole-heartedly accept conspiracy theory bullshit. You got the doffing procedure wrong btw.
- mindslight 7y ago
  What are you saying is wrong specifically? Even that bad-example video someone linked of directly grabbing the filter should not be a problem if you wash your hands afterwards. FWIW I use a 3M 7503 with discrete filters so there is a mask body to grab that is not the filter. Obviously other PPE (eg gloves) requires appropriate interleaving, but we're just focusing on masks here. What "clear science" are you referencing? I have not seen data demonstrating that individual mask use increases the chance of infection, which would be necessary to argue against individuals wearing masks on its own merits. Please share if you have it. In general, calling something a "conspiracy theory" is fallacious. From what I've seen, the intellectual argument underlying the "no masks" narrative is that individual mask use will "take away" from hospitals. When compared to other countries (eg: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776614), this is patently ridiculous.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    > What are you saying is wrong specifically? I'm saying that donning PPE is hard, and that members of the public can't do it. They usually miss out several hand washing steps, or they don items in the wrong order, or they don't have a safe place to doff items. You've said "wash your hands" -- you do that by touching taps/faucets. Most people would have to open a few doors to get to the taps. Now all those door handles, and the taps, are contaminated, so you need to clean them too. > FWIW I use a 3M 7503 with discrete filters so there is a mask body to grab The entire front face of that filter is to be regarded as contaminated. You must not touch it when doffing the mask. People in this thread are claiming that one use of the mask is to prevent infected people from infecting others, but this mask has an exhalation valve, so it doesn't stop infected droplets leaving the person wearing it. Masks provide marginal benefits to people walking around in public, but only if they're worn absolutely correctly. As soon as people deviate from the rigorous protocols those marginal benefits disappear. Worse, there's a chance that they increase risk. If people are touching their masks but not immediately washing their hands, or they are touching their face to adjust their mask then the mask is causing harm. > From what I've seen, the intellectual argument underlying the "no masks" narrative is that individual mask use will "take away" from hospitals WHO, CDC, PHE, etc have all been pretty clear that masks don't provide any benefit to members of the public. This thread is full of paranoid nonsense that this was a deliberate lie by the CDC/WHO to preserve stocks.