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As I alluded to in another post I am from Germany and certain people I work with actually went through the "... they came for me" phase. Your point does not st

As I alluded to in another post I am from Germany and certain people I work with actually went through the "... they came for me" phase. Your point does not stand on its own.

gerdesj 7y ago
I (en_GB) lived in that weird place called West Germany for about 10 years on and off back in the 70s and 80s. We have many friends (Hi Wurms, int al) who also have family, friends and acquaintances that lived through those days directly, shall we say, and of course my own family members who did from another side and perspective. You may want to take another look at my username and make of that what you will. My point really does stand. You might gradually allow erosion of your rights until you find that none are left. It is so easy to say "I have nothing to hide" until you find that actually you do have something to hide for reasons that are not immediately obvious. I am not saying that using Zoom will have nasty consequences but I am saying that the attitude that abrogates responsibility for your own privacy might have unintended consequences. If it becomes common place to simply say "meh" we might not like the world we get instead of the world we might wish for. My Old Saxon friends have a rather more robust attitude to privacy concerns than you mate!
- consonaut 7y ago
  I'm not going to play "guess what my username means" with you, sorry. I'm also not going to play "who knows more people that lived through the 3rd reich" with you. Me administering a Zoom account for my fellow employees and my students does not erode anybodies right. For me it is a choice between a GDPR compliant vendor and a vendor that does not care about the GDPR. Personally I have had good experiences with the GDPR (Facebook finally having to delete my account even though I would not verify it with a personal ID and cell phone number after I went through the irish data protection authority) and Zoom claims to be GDPR compliant. So, frankly I'm not sure what you are talking about. It seems like you are going for a slippery slope argument I don't agree with.
  - bad_user 7y ago
    Zoom also claims to have end-to-end encryption and yet they don't, their marketing and even their clarification post being a lie. Companies like Zoom can claim that they are GDPR compliant however truth of the matter is that compliance offices are overwhelmed. And until Zoom will have a huge data leak or something nobody is going to investigate their compliance. So a company like Zoom might claim GDPR compliance and that's something, but only if you can trust them. And a company that lies in their marketing and press releases can't be trusted, sorry. Google's Meet btw is also GDPR compliant, Google tries to be GDPR compliant nowadays with everything they do because they are a huge target. They also don't use bullshit in their marketing and are pretty good at security, so I personally trust them more, even if I actively avoid Google's products out of privacy concerns.
  - smueller1234 7y ago
    Nitpick: he's not talking about the Drittes Reich, he clearly must be talking about the experience people had in eastern German DDR / "German people's republic".
    - gerdesj 7y ago
      Kids! How on earth would a Brit end up in the DDR? OK we did: My dad was a British soldier (so was mum but that's another story). We were posted to exotic places like "Reindahln" (MG) and Paderborn and Soltau etc. We went on a holiday to West Berlin in around 1980ish. We were allowed through Check Point Charlie to see the DDR for a short while. Funnily enough exactly the same arrangement as getting into Northern Cyprus. ie the Turkish bit. Anyway, we saw the Brandenburg Gate from both sides, when it was mined all around but rather nicely flood lit. I have to say the east side looked a bit shag back then. Our German friends always used to look forwards to reunification but the cost when it came used to cause a few remarks cough. For me a unified Germany is a good and beneficial thing, regardless of cost. I saw first hand what life was like in E Berlin in the early 80s.
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    > and Zoom claims to be GDPR compliant. That's the thing, though. Zoom also claimed to be end-to-end encrypting with AES-256. If they were willing to lie about that, what's not to say they're willing to lie about GDPR compliance?
CamperBob2 7y ago
Your point does not stand on its own. No, but it will when the next generation of Nazi, Stalinist, and Maoist regimes arise and gain access to the data in question because we weren't fanatical enough about E2E privacy today. And just as Niemoeller's verse warns, by then it will be too late.
- consonaut 7y ago
  > And just as Niemoeller's verse warns, by then it will be too late. But, this is just wrong. In Germany we did speak out when they came for the communists, the socialists, the unions and the jews. Niemöllers argument was relevant in 1937 when he was arrested and I appreciate that you picked up on it but frankly it's different here in Germany. We do still speak out against discrimination against all of them. Maybe E2E encryption in a chat application is just not as pressing as the things Niemöller talked about at the time.
  - CamperBob2 7y ago
    Maybe not. Hope you're right.
- philwelch 7y ago
  There is an actual Maoist regime operating today that has access to Zoom's data. This is not a hypothetical.
philwelch 7y ago
Doesn’t Germany have specific data privacy laws based on the massive surveillance state that operated in the East up through 1990 or so? And you’re not concerned with using services that go through a country that, by all accounts, is trying to outdo the old Stasi with modern technology?
- consonaut 7y ago
  Zoom claims to be GDPR compliant (https://zoom.us/de-de/gdpr.html https://zoom.us/de-de/gdpr.html). Frankly, ensuring a company claims compliance is as far as I can go. I'm still hoping that if a company intentionally lies about this they will get sued out of existence. If I'm wrong about this the GDPR is worthless anyway and there isn't really anything I can do.
  - philwelch 7y ago
    If you’re not especially worried about having a communist police state intercept your private conversations, that’s your personal business. All I can ask is that you don’t go out of your way trying to legitimize that for everyone else as you have here.
  - xenonite 7y ago
    The problem is, you are right. In practice, many companies say "well, it is compliant, but we don't care about the rest as long as we can function".

As I alluded to in another post I am from Germany and certain people I work with actually went through the "... they came for me" phase. Your point does not stand on its own.

gerdesj 7y ago

I (en_GB) lived in that weird place called West Germany for about 10 years on and off back in the 70s and 80s. We have many friends (Hi Wurms, int al) who also have family, friends and acquaintances that lived through those days directly, shall we say, and of course my own family members who did from another side and perspective. You may want to take another look at my username and make of that what you will. My point really does stand. You might gradually allow erosion of your rights until you find that none are left. It is so easy to say "I have nothing to hide" until you find that actually you do have something to hide for reasons that are not immediately obvious. I am not saying that using Zoom will have nasty consequences but I am saying that the attitude that abrogates responsibility for your own privacy might have unintended consequences. If it becomes common place to simply say "meh" we might not like the world we get instead of the world we might wish for. My Old Saxon friends have a rather more robust attitude to privacy concerns than you mate!

consonaut 7y ago
I'm not going to play "guess what my username means" with you, sorry. I'm also not going to play "who knows more people that lived through the 3rd reich" with you. Me administering a Zoom account for my fellow employees and my students does not erode anybodies right. For me it is a choice between a GDPR compliant vendor and a vendor that does not care about the GDPR. Personally I have had good experiences with the GDPR (Facebook finally having to delete my account even though I would not verify it with a personal ID and cell phone number after I went through the irish data protection authority) and Zoom claims to be GDPR compliant. So, frankly I'm not sure what you are talking about. It seems like you are going for a slippery slope argument I don't agree with.
- bad_user 7y ago
  Zoom also claims to have end-to-end encryption and yet they don't, their marketing and even their clarification post being a lie. Companies like Zoom can claim that they are GDPR compliant however truth of the matter is that compliance offices are overwhelmed. And until Zoom will have a huge data leak or something nobody is going to investigate their compliance. So a company like Zoom might claim GDPR compliance and that's something, but only if you can trust them. And a company that lies in their marketing and press releases can't be trusted, sorry. Google's Meet btw is also GDPR compliant, Google tries to be GDPR compliant nowadays with everything they do because they are a huge target. They also don't use bullshit in their marketing and are pretty good at security, so I personally trust them more, even if I actively avoid Google's products out of privacy concerns.
- smueller1234 7y ago
  Nitpick: he's not talking about the Drittes Reich, he clearly must be talking about the experience people had in eastern German DDR / "German people's republic".
  - gerdesj 7y ago
    Kids! How on earth would a Brit end up in the DDR? OK we did: My dad was a British soldier (so was mum but that's another story). We were posted to exotic places like "Reindahln" (MG) and Paderborn and Soltau etc. We went on a holiday to West Berlin in around 1980ish. We were allowed through Check Point Charlie to see the DDR for a short while. Funnily enough exactly the same arrangement as getting into Northern Cyprus. ie the Turkish bit. Anyway, we saw the Brandenburg Gate from both sides, when it was mined all around but rather nicely flood lit. I have to say the east side looked a bit shag back then. Our German friends always used to look forwards to reunification but the cost when it came used to cause a few remarks cough. For me a unified Germany is a good and beneficial thing, regardless of cost. I saw first hand what life was like in E Berlin in the early 80s.
- yellowapple 7y ago
  > and Zoom claims to be GDPR compliant. That's the thing, though. Zoom also claimed to be end-to-end encrypting with AES-256. If they were willing to lie about that, what's not to say they're willing to lie about GDPR compliance?

CamperBob2 7y ago

Your point does not stand on its own. No, but it will when the next generation of Nazi, Stalinist, and Maoist regimes arise and gain access to the data in question because we weren't fanatical enough about E2E privacy today. And just as Niemoeller's verse warns, by then it will be too late.

consonaut 7y ago
> And just as Niemoeller's verse warns, by then it will be too late. But, this is just wrong. In Germany we did speak out when they came for the communists, the socialists, the unions and the jews. Niemöllers argument was relevant in 1937 when he was arrested and I appreciate that you picked up on it but frankly it's different here in Germany. We do still speak out against discrimination against all of them. Maybe E2E encryption in a chat application is just not as pressing as the things Niemöller talked about at the time.
- CamperBob2 7y ago
  Maybe not. Hope you're right.
philwelch 7y ago
There is an actual Maoist regime operating today that has access to Zoom's data. This is not a hypothetical.

philwelch 7y ago

Doesn’t Germany have specific data privacy laws based on the massive surveillance state that operated in the East up through 1990 or so? And you’re not concerned with using services that go through a country that, by all accounts, is trying to outdo the old Stasi with modern technology?

consonaut 7y ago
Zoom claims to be GDPR compliant (https://zoom.us/de-de/gdpr.html https://zoom.us/de-de/gdpr.html). Frankly, ensuring a company claims compliance is as far as I can go. I'm still hoping that if a company intentionally lies about this they will get sued out of existence. If I'm wrong about this the GDPR is worthless anyway and there isn't really anything I can do.
- philwelch 7y ago
  If you’re not especially worried about having a communist police state intercept your private conversations, that’s your personal business. All I can ask is that you don’t go out of your way trying to legitimize that for everyone else as you have here.
- xenonite 7y ago
  The problem is, you are right. In practice, many companies say "well, it is compliant, but we don't care about the rest as long as we can function".