5 ms·

At least I think WebRTC was mentioned, been dying for more fixes to issues.

maxwell 7y ago
Apple has intentionally crippled WebRTC for years to stifle FaceTime competition and drive up dev costs by forcing native app development. The video chat startup I co-founded in 2015 was impacted. https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20190716/109793/HHRG-116-JU05-20190716-SD036.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20190716/109793/HHRG...
- forkLding 7y ago
  Hi maxwell, what would you recommend to another developer who might be entering the same space with a WebRTC-based product?
  - maxwell 7y ago
    We settled on TokBox. We were one of their first customers making significant use of server-side recording (virtual estimates for home service providers), and worked closely with the TokBox QA/dev team to resolve bugs until things stabilized in 2016 around the time we hit real product-market fit (focusing on relocation moving estimates). I've stepped away but AFAIK they're still using it. It was expensive but worked with our business model ($20 for a successfully completed self-service video call between service provider and end customer, $50 to have the virtual survey performed/recorded by our trained video surveyors around the world, $90 to also have priced). I'd compare TokBox, Twilio Video, and Jitsi.
    - forkLding 7y ago
      Thanks maxwell for the answer! Really appreciate it, apologies for asking more but how did you guys handle customer browsers not really up to date or compatible with webrtc back then?
      - maxwell 7y ago
        We initially handled browser-specific bugs in an ad hoc manner, and kept hitting unexpected issues with slight variations in hardware and software. The most common issue was that things failed in a way we weren't expecting and the solution was better error handling. The usual tools for cross-device/browser testing (e.g. BrowserStack) didn't work for video chat: we could simulate network disruptions but needed actual hardware for testing and debugging video/audio issues. So we bought/pooled a ton of devices and had a QA team in our European office methodically test across devices and browsers. We were also contending with provider (TokBox) issues early on in '15, which were mostly resolved by mid '16. Our business model, and pivots that focused our target market, didn't enable building out that level of infrastructure in-house, and I wouldn't recommend it if making any kind of vertical play, i.e. unless your customers are developers.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Why pray tell would Apple want to “stifle” competition for FaceTime? It’s not like Apple makes money from it. And then they are stifling competition for their app - by “forcing” you to create an app that integrates with dialer and your call history? Maybe your startup was “impacted” by not having the expertise or funding to create a native app like at least a dozen companies have done?
  - 1over137 7y ago
    >It’s not like Apple makes money from it. Facetime is a feature that helps sell their devices. If they don't ultimately make money from it, why did they spent money to create it?
    - scarface74 7y ago
      So how would stopping people from making web video chat apps but allowing them to make apps that integrate with the dialer and phone history help them sell more devices? They want a robust third party ecosystem.
      - maxwell 7y ago
        Devoting developer resources to building/extending native iOS apps to integrate with iOS-specific dialer/phone history increases costs and extends lock-in. Web apps that can perform all the functionality of native apps, such as video chat and games, erode the value of the App Store. Integrating with the iOS dialer and phone history means not implementing something else that would provide value across platforms.
        scarface74 7y ago
        The attitude that a company shouldn’t actually build features that are better for the consumer and instead are better for the developer is how we end up with crappy resource intensive, battery draining electron apps. If you can’t make an app that is in the best interest of the customer, maybe your product doesn’t deserve to exist.
- Gaelan 7y ago
  This is all that PDF has to say about WebRTC: > WebRTC for videoconferencing is not supported for third-party browsers because Safari displays a prominent UI to make sure the user knows when a website is recording using the camera and microphone. Apple does not yet have a way to make this UI work in other WebKit clients. That's a far cry from what you're insinuating.
  - maxwell 7y ago
    Safari didn't support WebRTC until 2017. iOS doesn't support third-party browser engines, and third-party browser apps (i.e. embedded web views) have issues because... they haven't figured out the UI yet. Safari also doesn't support service workers or the fullscreen API.
holidaygoose 7y ago
With today's remote work and overuse of the internet, WebRTC is really critical. Same with WebP -- the bandwidth savings there could be immense in a time when we're using more internet than ever. I'm disappointed in Apple's lack of investment in these things, and it feels like they're out of touch.
- om2 7y ago
  We’ve worked hard to deliver WebRTC and make it better over time. If you have specific bugs to report, please share!

Apple has intentionally crippled WebRTC for years to stifle FaceTime competition and drive up dev costs by forcing native app development. The video chat startup I co-founded in 2015 was impacted. https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20190716/109793/HHRG-116-JU05-20190716-SD036.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20190716/109793/HHRG...

forkLding 7y ago
Hi maxwell, what would you recommend to another developer who might be entering the same space with a WebRTC-based product?
- maxwell 7y ago
  We settled on TokBox. We were one of their first customers making significant use of server-side recording (virtual estimates for home service providers), and worked closely with the TokBox QA/dev team to resolve bugs until things stabilized in 2016 around the time we hit real product-market fit (focusing on relocation moving estimates). I've stepped away but AFAIK they're still using it. It was expensive but worked with our business model ($20 for a successfully completed self-service video call between service provider and end customer, $50 to have the virtual survey performed/recorded by our trained video surveyors around the world, $90 to also have priced). I'd compare TokBox, Twilio Video, and Jitsi.
  - forkLding 7y ago
    Thanks maxwell for the answer! Really appreciate it, apologies for asking more but how did you guys handle customer browsers not really up to date or compatible with webrtc back then?
    - maxwell 7y ago
      We initially handled browser-specific bugs in an ad hoc manner, and kept hitting unexpected issues with slight variations in hardware and software. The most common issue was that things failed in a way we weren't expecting and the solution was better error handling. The usual tools for cross-device/browser testing (e.g. BrowserStack) didn't work for video chat: we could simulate network disruptions but needed actual hardware for testing and debugging video/audio issues. So we bought/pooled a ton of devices and had a QA team in our European office methodically test across devices and browsers. We were also contending with provider (TokBox) issues early on in '15, which were mostly resolved by mid '16. Our business model, and pivots that focused our target market, didn't enable building out that level of infrastructure in-house, and I wouldn't recommend it if making any kind of vertical play, i.e. unless your customers are developers.
scarface74 7y ago
Why pray tell would Apple want to “stifle” competition for FaceTime? It’s not like Apple makes money from it. And then they are stifling competition for their app - by “forcing” you to create an app that integrates with dialer and your call history? Maybe your startup was “impacted” by not having the expertise or funding to create a native app like at least a dozen companies have done?
- 1over137 7y ago
  >It’s not like Apple makes money from it. Facetime is a feature that helps sell their devices. If they don't ultimately make money from it, why did they spent money to create it?
  - scarface74 7y ago
    So how would stopping people from making web video chat apps but allowing them to make apps that integrate with the dialer and phone history help them sell more devices? They want a robust third party ecosystem.
    - maxwell 7y ago
      Devoting developer resources to building/extending native iOS apps to integrate with iOS-specific dialer/phone history increases costs and extends lock-in. Web apps that can perform all the functionality of native apps, such as video chat and games, erode the value of the App Store. Integrating with the iOS dialer and phone history means not implementing something else that would provide value across platforms.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        The attitude that a company shouldn’t actually build features that are better for the consumer and instead are better for the developer is how we end up with crappy resource intensive, battery draining electron apps. If you can’t make an app that is in the best interest of the customer, maybe your product doesn’t deserve to exist.
Gaelan 7y ago
This is all that PDF has to say about WebRTC: > WebRTC for videoconferencing is not supported for third-party browsers because Safari displays a prominent UI to make sure the user knows when a website is recording using the camera and microphone. Apple does not yet have a way to make this UI work in other WebKit clients. That's a far cry from what you're insinuating.
- maxwell 7y ago
  Safari didn't support WebRTC until 2017. iOS doesn't support third-party browser engines, and third-party browser apps (i.e. embedded web views) have issues because... they haven't figured out the UI yet. Safari also doesn't support service workers or the fullscreen API.

holidaygoose 7y ago

With today's remote work and overuse of the internet, WebRTC is really critical. Same with WebP -- the bandwidth savings there could be immense in a time when we're using more internet than ever. I'm disappointed in Apple's lack of investment in these things, and it feels like they're out of touch.

om2 7y ago
We’ve worked hard to deliver WebRTC and make it better over time. If you have specific bugs to report, please share!