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> The profit motive over a democratically planned economy is horrible most of the time but really becomes a mess in a crisis. Why not have bread lines only in

> The profit motive over a democratically planned economy is horrible most of the time but really becomes a mess in a crisis. Why not have bread lines only in a crisis, when you can have them all the time instead?

ardy42 7y ago
You know, there's a vast spectrum of economic policy options between central planning and laissez faire, and you don't even have to be consistent about which gets picked for each industry. I think the OP was advocating for a different spot on that spectrum for certain things, not one of the extremes for everything.
- lliamander 7y ago
  This is not a "hey, maybe we should require some stockpiles" like they do in Switzerland (didn't stockpile enough masks, sadly enough). The OP was literally advocating for a centrally ("democratically") planned economy. Having production dictated by the political process as the default is the extreme position. Developed countries all find some balance between central planning and laissez faire, but they do so by assuming the free market as the default. Intervention and central planning is only applied to specific cases where there is a concrete public interest in doing so.
  - ardy42 7y ago
    > The OP was literally advocating for a centrally ("democratically") planned economy. Having production dictated by the political process as the default is the extreme position. No. You just seem to have reacted reflexively seeing the word "planned" placed next to the word "economy," without seeking any clarification or understanding or even really putting it in context. The OP was clearly focused on criticizing prioritization of profit-seeking over all other interests, and the corrosive effect that has had on our ability to respond to this present crisis. > Developed countries all find some balance between central planning and laissez faire, but they do so by assuming the free market as the default. Intervention and central planning is only applied to specific cases where there is a concrete public interest in doing so. And you know what? This crisis is uncovering a lot of areas where less laissez faire and more government intervention would have been "concretely in the public interest." The market system is an imperfect means to an end, not an end itself.
    - lliamander 7y ago
      > No. You just seem to have reacted reflexively seeing the word "planned" placed next to the word "economy," without seeking any clarification or understanding or even really putting it in context. I don't how one could see the phrase "planned economy" and not think the OP meant something other than "planned economy". One can criticize profit motive and not promote a planned economy. The OP is literally a self-professed Trotskyist[0]. > And you know what? This crisis is uncovering a lot of areas where less laissez faire and more government intervention would have been "concretely in the public interest." Please do tell. > The market system is an imperfect means to an end, not an end itself. No one said it was an end unto itself. [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22698823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22698823
      - ardy42 7y ago
        >> And you know what? This crisis is uncovering a lot of areas where less laissez faire and more government intervention would have been "concretely in the public interest." > Please do tell. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-ventilator-shortage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-v... > Thirteen years ago, a group of U.S. public health officials came up with a plan to address what they regarded as one of the medical system’s crucial vulnerabilities: a shortage of ventilators.... > Money was budgeted. A federal contract was signed. Work got underway. > And then things suddenly veered off course. A multibillion-dollar maker of medical devices bought the small California company that had been hired to design the new machines. The project ultimately produced zero ventilators.... > The stalled efforts to create a new class of cheap, easy-to-use ventilators highlight the perils of outsourcing projects with critical public-health implications to private companies; their focus on maximizing profits is not always consistent with the government’s goal of preparing for a future crisis.... > Government officials and executives at rival ventilator companies said they suspected that Covidien had acquired Newport to prevent it from building a cheaper product that would undermine Covidien’s profits from its existing ventilator business.... > In 2014, with no ventilators having been delivered to the government, Covidien executives told officials at the biomedical research agency that they wanted to get out of the contract, according to three former federal officials. The executives complained that it was not sufficiently profitable for the company. That's just something I read recently. There's also the general fact that capitalists love efficiency and hate excess capacity, which means they tend to sacrifice resiliency. There's no profit today in maintaining capability to handle a disruption in a socially beneficial way, so they specialize for their hothouse environment. Heck, if some apologists for price-gouging had their way, such a firm could even profit handsomely from a crisis they failed to prepare for.
0x262d 7y ago
This comment is very ignorant about: 1. how often capitalism has bread lines in countries economically linked to, but outside of, the US and other rich capitalist countries, in the "global south"; 2. the fact that bread lines in "socialist" (but not actually socialist) countries like Venezuela are in large part due to US policy and sanctions, and are over-reported anyway; and 3. the fact that socialism has never been tried in a fair way because it is an existential threat to the wealth of people like Jeff Bezos, who prefer to strangle it in the cradle instead. But thank you for regurgitating the ignorant "bread lines!" trope when there are actual, literal bread lines in the US right now!
- lliamander 7y ago
  > But thank you for regurgitating the ignorant "bread lines!" trope when there are actual, literal bread lines in the US right now! I am aware that there are actual bread lines right now, as implied by my original statement. Of course, the bread lines we are facing has more to do with (at present) a rapid shock in demand, rather than actual food shortages. Whereas in actual historical socialist countries (like Soviet Russia, East Germany, etc.) did actually have shortages on a regular basis. > the fact that socialism has never been tried in a fair way because it is an existential threat to the wealth of people like Jeff Bezos, who prefer to strangle it in the cradle instead. There is no notion more riddled with folly and arrogance that "socialism has never properly been tried". That the USSR was defeated and China was bullied into submission by the likes of a few wealthy corporations is nonsense.
  - salawat 7y ago
    You're still being disingenuous because you aren't dealing with the point he was actually making. His point was that capitalism's optimization function steered us in the direction whereby most of our "wealth" in this country is derived from the assumption of intact and normal flowing international supply chains to fuel the engine of consumerism instead of being based on the actual capability to produce and deliver finished product from raw material in a time of crisis or otherwise. Globalism has spelled doom in the sense that we haven't been making sure to maintain our own industrial capability, while instead raking in as much "capital" return by exploiting the wage gap found internationally. Yet as soon as that decision bit us in the ass, our capability as a lone nation to take care of our owm has essentially been sold off to the lowest bidder elsewhere, who is now more than happy to turn around and hold said resources hostage as diplomatic leverage. But no, please. Yet another entertaining and predictable rant about the socialist boogeyman would be great. Has the bonus of distracting from the actual problem as well, so kills two birds with one stone. /s I'm so tired of hearing people hit stop points over capitalism vs. the merest notion that a nation should have some level of influence over the market and industrial infrastructure it maintains in the interests it's own security. 0x is absolutely fucking right. Unrestrained capitalism encourages selling the jewels right out from under the nation that is dependent and instrumental to the very jewel's existence. No goddamn pile of dollar bills or IOU's is capable of taking the place of actual, physical, manufacturing capability ready to go, unreliant on unreliable trade partners in a time of crisis. It's a case of personal safety, writ large. The fantasy of a world pacified through economic interdependence was a bloody sham from the beginning, made even worse by the vices of the ultra-wealthy, and exacerbated even more by the aspirations of the swathes of temporarily inconvenienced billionaires that seek to figure out how to get on top of the carriage one day so maybe they get their turn at playing the part of the "Invisible Hand". So I counter your Socialist boogeyman once again with "look at where your Global Capitalist paradise got you: Diplomatic tensions through the roof, your primary economic rival holding most of the relevant industrial cards; an isolated population, paralyzed by a virus you can do nil about because you sold/didn't build the factories, a collapsing economy, and in the same breadlines the "Socialists" you so despise are in". So quit the bloody rhetorical posturing. It's all been said and it does nothing to help with the problems at hand. The country needs to industrially mobilize once more: without the crutch of foreign powers oh so eager to provide a workforce on the condition we show them how to build the actually challenging bits and leave all the physical assets with them, to be held hostage the first time things get tough. I have no grudge against the Chinese or anyone else at the moment. We're all in this pandemic, so they're going to do what hi.ans do and look after themselves. If anything,I'm more pissed off that my own country which so pounds the drum of being responsible and self-sufficient has been on the global trade dole to the point it's forgotten how to pick itself up and go without squabbling over who gets the contract, and how hard can I screw my workers.

ardy42 7y ago

You know, there's a vast spectrum of economic policy options between central planning and laissez faire, and you don't even have to be consistent about which gets picked for each industry. I think the OP was advocating for a different spot on that spectrum for certain things, not one of the extremes for everything.

lliamander 7y ago
This is not a "hey, maybe we should require some stockpiles" like they do in Switzerland (didn't stockpile enough masks, sadly enough). The OP was literally advocating for a centrally ("democratically") planned economy. Having production dictated by the political process as the default is the extreme position. Developed countries all find some balance between central planning and laissez faire, but they do so by assuming the free market as the default. Intervention and central planning is only applied to specific cases where there is a concrete public interest in doing so.
- ardy42 7y ago
  > The OP was literally advocating for a centrally ("democratically") planned economy. Having production dictated by the political process as the default is the extreme position. No. You just seem to have reacted reflexively seeing the word "planned" placed next to the word "economy," without seeking any clarification or understanding or even really putting it in context. The OP was clearly focused on criticizing prioritization of profit-seeking over all other interests, and the corrosive effect that has had on our ability to respond to this present crisis. > Developed countries all find some balance between central planning and laissez faire, but they do so by assuming the free market as the default. Intervention and central planning is only applied to specific cases where there is a concrete public interest in doing so. And you know what? This crisis is uncovering a lot of areas where less laissez faire and more government intervention would have been "concretely in the public interest." The market system is an imperfect means to an end, not an end itself.
  - lliamander 7y ago
    > No. You just seem to have reacted reflexively seeing the word "planned" placed next to the word "economy," without seeking any clarification or understanding or even really putting it in context. I don't how one could see the phrase "planned economy" and not think the OP meant something other than "planned economy". One can criticize profit motive and not promote a planned economy. The OP is literally a self-professed Trotskyist[0]. > And you know what? This crisis is uncovering a lot of areas where less laissez faire and more government intervention would have been "concretely in the public interest." Please do tell. > The market system is an imperfect means to an end, not an end itself. No one said it was an end unto itself. [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22698823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22698823
    - ardy42 7y ago
      >> And you know what? This crisis is uncovering a lot of areas where less laissez faire and more government intervention would have been "concretely in the public interest." > Please do tell. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-ventilator-shortage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-v... > Thirteen years ago, a group of U.S. public health officials came up with a plan to address what they regarded as one of the medical system’s crucial vulnerabilities: a shortage of ventilators.... > Money was budgeted. A federal contract was signed. Work got underway. > And then things suddenly veered off course. A multibillion-dollar maker of medical devices bought the small California company that had been hired to design the new machines. The project ultimately produced zero ventilators.... > The stalled efforts to create a new class of cheap, easy-to-use ventilators highlight the perils of outsourcing projects with critical public-health implications to private companies; their focus on maximizing profits is not always consistent with the government’s goal of preparing for a future crisis.... > Government officials and executives at rival ventilator companies said they suspected that Covidien had acquired Newport to prevent it from building a cheaper product that would undermine Covidien’s profits from its existing ventilator business.... > In 2014, with no ventilators having been delivered to the government, Covidien executives told officials at the biomedical research agency that they wanted to get out of the contract, according to three former federal officials. The executives complained that it was not sufficiently profitable for the company. That's just something I read recently. There's also the general fact that capitalists love efficiency and hate excess capacity, which means they tend to sacrifice resiliency. There's no profit today in maintaining capability to handle a disruption in a socially beneficial way, so they specialize for their hothouse environment. Heck, if some apologists for price-gouging had their way, such a firm could even profit handsomely from a crisis they failed to prepare for.

0x262d 7y ago

This comment is very ignorant about: 1. how often capitalism has bread lines in countries economically linked to, but outside of, the US and other rich capitalist countries, in the "global south"; 2. the fact that bread lines in "socialist" (but not actually socialist) countries like Venezuela are in large part due to US policy and sanctions, and are over-reported anyway; and 3. the fact that socialism has never been tried in a fair way because it is an existential threat to the wealth of people like Jeff Bezos, who prefer to strangle it in the cradle instead. But thank you for regurgitating the ignorant "bread lines!" trope when there are actual, literal bread lines in the US right now!

lliamander 7y ago
> But thank you for regurgitating the ignorant "bread lines!" trope when there are actual, literal bread lines in the US right now! I am aware that there are actual bread lines right now, as implied by my original statement. Of course, the bread lines we are facing has more to do with (at present) a rapid shock in demand, rather than actual food shortages. Whereas in actual historical socialist countries (like Soviet Russia, East Germany, etc.) did actually have shortages on a regular basis. > the fact that socialism has never been tried in a fair way because it is an existential threat to the wealth of people like Jeff Bezos, who prefer to strangle it in the cradle instead. There is no notion more riddled with folly and arrogance that "socialism has never properly been tried". That the USSR was defeated and China was bullied into submission by the likes of a few wealthy corporations is nonsense.
- salawat 7y ago
  You're still being disingenuous because you aren't dealing with the point he was actually making. His point was that capitalism's optimization function steered us in the direction whereby most of our "wealth" in this country is derived from the assumption of intact and normal flowing international supply chains to fuel the engine of consumerism instead of being based on the actual capability to produce and deliver finished product from raw material in a time of crisis or otherwise. Globalism has spelled doom in the sense that we haven't been making sure to maintain our own industrial capability, while instead raking in as much "capital" return by exploiting the wage gap found internationally. Yet as soon as that decision bit us in the ass, our capability as a lone nation to take care of our owm has essentially been sold off to the lowest bidder elsewhere, who is now more than happy to turn around and hold said resources hostage as diplomatic leverage. But no, please. Yet another entertaining and predictable rant about the socialist boogeyman would be great. Has the bonus of distracting from the actual problem as well, so kills two birds with one stone. /s I'm so tired of hearing people hit stop points over capitalism vs. the merest notion that a nation should have some level of influence over the market and industrial infrastructure it maintains in the interests it's own security. 0x is absolutely fucking right. Unrestrained capitalism encourages selling the jewels right out from under the nation that is dependent and instrumental to the very jewel's existence. No goddamn pile of dollar bills or IOU's is capable of taking the place of actual, physical, manufacturing capability ready to go, unreliant on unreliable trade partners in a time of crisis. It's a case of personal safety, writ large. The fantasy of a world pacified through economic interdependence was a bloody sham from the beginning, made even worse by the vices of the ultra-wealthy, and exacerbated even more by the aspirations of the swathes of temporarily inconvenienced billionaires that seek to figure out how to get on top of the carriage one day so maybe they get their turn at playing the part of the "Invisible Hand". So I counter your Socialist boogeyman once again with "look at where your Global Capitalist paradise got you: Diplomatic tensions through the roof, your primary economic rival holding most of the relevant industrial cards; an isolated population, paralyzed by a virus you can do nil about because you sold/didn't build the factories, a collapsing economy, and in the same breadlines the "Socialists" you so despise are in". So quit the bloody rhetorical posturing. It's all been said and it does nothing to help with the problems at hand. The country needs to industrially mobilize once more: without the crutch of foreign powers oh so eager to provide a workforce on the condition we show them how to build the actually challenging bits and leave all the physical assets with them, to be held hostage the first time things get tough. I have no grudge against the Chinese or anyone else at the moment. We're all in this pandemic, so they're going to do what hi.ans do and look after themselves. If anything,I'm more pissed off that my own country which so pounds the drum of being responsible and self-sufficient has been on the global trade dole to the point it's forgotten how to pick itself up and go without squabbling over who gets the contract, and how hard can I screw my workers.