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> Q. What do I need to install? > Just Python is enough. Other installation suggestions and support are available in the forum. Speaking as someone who has t

by danso 7y ago

> Q. What do I need to install? > Just Python is enough. Other installation suggestions and support are available in the forum. Speaking as someone who has taught Python to non-programmers in classroom and workshop settings, this seems like far too vague an instruction. For many novice (including the instructor!), the installation and system setup is the most frustrating and confusing part of hands-on learning. With non-programmers, you can never assume a base level of computing understanding – this includes things like not knowing how to get into the command-line, or install a text editor, or even what filenames and file extensions are (I always have students enable display of file extensions at the start; usually it's off by default for most OSes). I would think you'd want to do this kind of thing having students use something like CoLab or PythonAnywhere. Sure, it's nice to run code from your own system, but that's not an immediate concern for most people trying to learn the basics.

rafaelm 7y ago
I think Thonny is perfect for this. It includes Python 3.7, has a simple debugger and is multi-platform. Not affiliated, just a happy user. https://thonny.org/ https://thonny.org/
- xapata 7y ago
  > Explains scopes. Highlighting variable occurrences reminds you that the same name doesn't always mean the same variable and helps spotting typos. Local variables are visually distinguished from globals. That'd be a good feature in any IDE.
- jliu70 7y ago
  Yep, I agree with Thonny. It comes with Raspbien as well. Another beginner option which is quite similar to Thonny is Mu. https://codewith.mu https://codewith.mu
totemandtoken 7y ago
Yeah, I teach python to elementary and middle schoolers. The first lesson is getting everything installed and maybe explaining the basics of how files work on computers. PythonAnywhere is a really good idea though, I should look into that...
- xapata 7y ago
  https://repl.it/ https://repl.it/ is good too.
  - _fullpint 7y ago
    Absolutely -- one of the tools I wish more classrooms used. Even in a CS program, its surprising how difficult it is for many students to provision the correct software.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    I wish there was something like repl.it but with an even more basic UI (but which still allowed saving and sharing of programs). Super-beginners don't need version control or a debugger, and I worry that extra visual noise draws away brain power when you're starting out. We use Trinket.io at my Girls Who Code club (or did before Coronavirus mayhem shut it down). It has the simpler interface, but one huge flaw—the free version is some kind of weird hybrid interpreter that will attempt to run both python 2 and python 3 code (in the same program, even).
    - amasad 7y ago
      Repl.it CEO here, I'm curious which noise are you talking about? Here is how the empty python environment looks like (editor, console, and a huge green run button): https://answer-on-hn.amasad.repl.co/python.png https://answer-on-hn.amasad.repl.co/python.png We continue to test with kids and they intuitively get it with little instructions. If you want to make the environment even simpler just add "?lite=1" to the url and it will look like this: https://answer-on-hn.amasad.repl.co/lite.png https://answer-on-hn.amasad.repl.co/lite.png
      - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        Thank you! What I really want is that left sidebar gone (Files, Version Control, Packages, Debugger, Settings). Kids starting out don't need any of it.
qilo 7y ago
Microsoft Store in Windows 10 has the Python 3.7 and 3.8 packages (prepared by PSF itself) with some limitations, which shouldn't matter for beginner users. So it's basically one click install. The issues has to do with the way Microsoft Store apps are sandboxed within the environment, to quote: Because of restrictions on Microsoft Store apps, Python scripts may not have full write access to shared locations such as TEMP and the registry. Instead, it will write to a private copy. If your scripts must modify the shared locations, you will need to install the full installer. https://docs.python.org/3.8/using/windows.html#known-issues https://docs.python.org/3.8/using/windows.html#known-issues
- xapata 7y ago
  python.org has shipped faulty distributions before, sadly. Best to make sure your lesson plan works on each Python version someone might use, on every OS, etc. Or just use a common configuration. Also, are you abandoning Mac users?
  - qilo 7y ago
    I'm just a viewer of that course. I guess for Mac users, it's easy, cause MacOS already comes with Python (3.x?) preinstalled. The course author himself video streams from the MacOS system.
    - danso 7y ago
      MacOS has only had Python 2.x installed. Python and Ruby have both been deprecated in Catalina (10.15) and will not be pre-installed on MacOS in future releases: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos_release_notes/macos_10_15_beta_release_notes https://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos_release_note... > Scripting language runtimes such as Python, Ruby, and Perl are included in macOS for compatibility with legacy software. Future versions of macOS won’t include scripting language runtimes by default, and might require you to install additional packages. If your software depends on scripting languages, it’s recommended that you bundle the runtime within the app.
    - reuven 7y ago
legionof7 7y ago
Replit is perfect for this.
mixmastamyk 7y ago
> (I always have students enable display of file extensions at the start; usually it's off by default for most OSes). Isn't that just Windows? I don't remember Mac doing that, and certainly other Unixes wouldn't make such a brain-dead decision. It's one of those things that seems like it would make things simpler, but actually makes it harder to understand.
- catalogia 7y ago
  > Filename extensions are usually hidden in macOS, but if you find them useful, you can show them. https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/show-or-hide-filename-extensions-on-mac-mchlp2304/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/show-or-hide-filena... (This matches my experience. Perhaps you simply forget changing this setting.)
  - mixmastamyk 7y ago
    Yes, I don't use it much, and must have changed it the first day.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- kick 7y ago
  It's one of those things that seems like it would make things simpler, but actually makes it harder to understand. Normally I agree with this point of view, but file extensions don't make sense for what's probably the most common use-case: people clicking on a file, and waiting for it to do something. If they get a mail attachment that's something like `week04.xlsx`, they aren't going to be right-clicking and opening in Excel, they're just going to click twice on it. The type of file doesn't really matter to them, they just want it to open in the right program. The extension probably just serves to confuse most users.
  - mixmastamyk 7y ago
    That file extensions are not the best way to handle metadata is neither here nor there at this point. They don't seem to be going away, so better get used to them. The problem is you when you need to specify a filename and the displayed value is different that the true value, causing any number of errors, for unexplained reasons. That's the worst kind of simplification in my opinion. Reminds me of other bad decisions from older Windows versions. Instead of a proper filesystem permissions, Explorer would tell you "Don't look in here, you could break something." I like to call it the "Band-aid over a gaping wound" model.
ericol 7y ago
I been trying to get one of my daughters to learn programming (With / through Python) for some time now. She's also willing, but life gets in the way and her dedications was sparse. This week with lockdown and everything she started to study again. I had recently "upgraded" her laptop from Windows to Debian, and installed both PyCharm and Miniconda on it. So, this week she managed to configure PyCharm to use the Miniconda python interpreter, and I gave her a few instructions (That were actually a repetition or some I gave her a while back) on to how to run Jupyter. Come the next day, and she calls me to ask me how to run some notebook she had in a backup. She had already copied them in a folder (A different one that the one she was using the previous day). So I told her "Ok, so you go to the folder and run Jupyter in it". "Dad. Run... WHERE!" The amount of assumed knowledge we programmers have, and usually assume other people (Even non-programmers) have, is enormous. I didn't even click in the link, but if all are all the instructions they give to install python, they are off to a not actually bad but chopped foot start.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  My son is taking a programming class in high school - they use repl.it for all their assignments. That makes installation a non-issue; eventually I assume they'll "graduate" to a local install, but it helps them focus on learning the language and not worrying about the environment (yet).
- reuven 7y ago
  That's definitely not all I tell people to do. And I not only give people instructions, but also personal help when they have trouble installing things. I've been teaching non-programmers for years, and know that they need help getting it set up. I try to offer as much as possible of that kind of help in the course.
- danielscrubs 7y ago
  Girlfriend is learning programming/Java through a course that was suddenly made into a distance course (because of Corona). She's on the fourth week and the lessons are still 80% about the teacher trying to help students set up the online environment (https://codeanywhere.com https://codeanywhere.com). It seems frustrating for everyone involved.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
I think this is one of the secrets of the success of VBA. Open Excel and you have a full IDE.
- tmh88j 7y ago
  Perhaps, but I think it's more likely that the only feasible option was to use VBA with excel, and excel is the "default" spreadsheet application used everywhere. It nearly the same reason why JavaScript became the default front end language thanks to Netscape, which was the "excel of browsers" during the dawn of the internet.
- contravariant 7y ago
  The flipside of this is that you can open an Excel file and expect a full VBA application to begin running immediately. Or well, luckily someone eventually realised that that wasn't a good idea so now they just open with a big warning saying that the file in read only mode. Hopefully you also get some more intelligible warnings when it actually tries to run VB code.
Blake_Emigro 7y ago
You know what's better than criticizing negatively? Helping. So, to avoid being a hypocrite, how can I help you? LOL
reuven 7y ago
I have a Discourse forum that's open to anyone who registers for the course. I've been helping people there to install Python and Jupyter, as well as an IDE (typically PyCharm) if they want.

by danso 7y ago

rafaelm 7y ago

I think Thonny is perfect for this. It includes Python 3.7, has a simple debugger and is multi-platform. Not affiliated, just a happy user. https://thonny.org/ https://thonny.org/

xapata 7y ago
> Explains scopes. Highlighting variable occurrences reminds you that the same name doesn't always mean the same variable and helps spotting typos. Local variables are visually distinguished from globals. That'd be a good feature in any IDE.
jliu70 7y ago
Yep, I agree with Thonny. It comes with Raspbien as well. Another beginner option which is quite similar to Thonny is Mu. https://codewith.mu https://codewith.mu

totemandtoken 7y ago

Yeah, I teach python to elementary and middle schoolers. The first lesson is getting everything installed and maybe explaining the basics of how files work on computers. PythonAnywhere is a really good idea though, I should look into that...

xapata 7y ago
https://repl.it/ https://repl.it/ is good too.
- _fullpint 7y ago
  Absolutely -- one of the tools I wish more classrooms used. Even in a CS program, its surprising how difficult it is for many students to provision the correct software.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  I wish there was something like repl.it but with an even more basic UI (but which still allowed saving and sharing of programs). Super-beginners don't need version control or a debugger, and I worry that extra visual noise draws away brain power when you're starting out. We use Trinket.io at my Girls Who Code club (or did before Coronavirus mayhem shut it down). It has the simpler interface, but one huge flaw—the free version is some kind of weird hybrid interpreter that will attempt to run both python 2 and python 3 code (in the same program, even).
  - amasad 7y ago
    Repl.it CEO here, I'm curious which noise are you talking about? Here is how the empty python environment looks like (editor, console, and a huge green run button): https://answer-on-hn.amasad.repl.co/python.png https://answer-on-hn.amasad.repl.co/python.png We continue to test with kids and they intuitively get it with little instructions. If you want to make the environment even simpler just add "?lite=1" to the url and it will look like this: https://answer-on-hn.amasad.repl.co/lite.png https://answer-on-hn.amasad.repl.co/lite.png
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      Thank you! What I really want is that left sidebar gone (Files, Version Control, Packages, Debugger, Settings). Kids starting out don't need any of it.

qilo 7y ago

Microsoft Store in Windows 10 has the Python 3.7 and 3.8 packages (prepared by PSF itself) with some limitations, which shouldn't matter for beginner users. So it's basically one click install. The issues has to do with the way Microsoft Store apps are sandboxed within the environment, to quote: Because of restrictions on Microsoft Store apps, Python scripts may not have full write access to shared locations such as TEMP and the registry. Instead, it will write to a private copy. If your scripts must modify the shared locations, you will need to install the full installer. https://docs.python.org/3.8/using/windows.html#known-issues https://docs.python.org/3.8/using/windows.html#known-issues

xapata 7y ago
python.org has shipped faulty distributions before, sadly. Best to make sure your lesson plan works on each Python version someone might use, on every OS, etc. Or just use a common configuration. Also, are you abandoning Mac users?
- qilo 7y ago
  I'm just a viewer of that course. I guess for Mac users, it's easy, cause MacOS already comes with Python (3.x?) preinstalled. The course author himself video streams from the MacOS system.
  - danso 7y ago
    MacOS has only had Python 2.x installed. Python and Ruby have both been deprecated in Catalina (10.15) and will not be pre-installed on MacOS in future releases: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos_release_notes/macos_10_15_beta_release_notes https://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos_release_note... > Scripting language runtimes such as Python, Ruby, and Perl are included in macOS for compatibility with legacy software. Future versions of macOS won’t include scripting language runtimes by default, and might require you to install additional packages. If your software depends on scripting languages, it’s recommended that you bundle the runtime within the app.
  - reuven 7y ago

legionof7 7y ago

Replit is perfect for this.

mixmastamyk 7y ago

> (I always have students enable display of file extensions at the start; usually it's off by default for most OSes). Isn't that just Windows? I don't remember Mac doing that, and certainly other Unixes wouldn't make such a brain-dead decision. It's one of those things that seems like it would make things simpler, but actually makes it harder to understand.

catalogia 7y ago
> Filename extensions are usually hidden in macOS, but if you find them useful, you can show them. https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/show-or-hide-filename-extensions-on-mac-mchlp2304/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/show-or-hide-filena... (This matches my experience. Perhaps you simply forget changing this setting.)
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  Yes, I don't use it much, and must have changed it the first day.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kick 7y ago
It's one of those things that seems like it would make things simpler, but actually makes it harder to understand. Normally I agree with this point of view, but file extensions don't make sense for what's probably the most common use-case: people clicking on a file, and waiting for it to do something. If they get a mail attachment that's something like `week04.xlsx`, they aren't going to be right-clicking and opening in Excel, they're just going to click twice on it. The type of file doesn't really matter to them, they just want it to open in the right program. The extension probably just serves to confuse most users.
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  That file extensions are not the best way to handle metadata is neither here nor there at this point. They don't seem to be going away, so better get used to them. The problem is you when you need to specify a filename and the displayed value is different that the true value, causing any number of errors, for unexplained reasons. That's the worst kind of simplification in my opinion. Reminds me of other bad decisions from older Windows versions. Instead of a proper filesystem permissions, Explorer would tell you "Don't look in here, you could break something." I like to call it the "Band-aid over a gaping wound" model.

ericol 7y ago

I been trying to get one of my daughters to learn programming (With / through Python) for some time now. She's also willing, but life gets in the way and her dedications was sparse. This week with lockdown and everything she started to study again. I had recently "upgraded" her laptop from Windows to Debian, and installed both PyCharm and Miniconda on it. So, this week she managed to configure PyCharm to use the Miniconda python interpreter, and I gave her a few instructions (That were actually a repetition or some I gave her a while back) on to how to run Jupyter. Come the next day, and she calls me to ask me how to run some notebook she had in a backup. She had already copied them in a folder (A different one that the one she was using the previous day). So I told her "Ok, so you go to the folder and run Jupyter in it". "Dad. Run... WHERE!" The amount of assumed knowledge we programmers have, and usually assume other people (Even non-programmers) have, is enormous. I didn't even click in the link, but if all are all the instructions they give to install python, they are off to a not actually bad but chopped foot start.

commandlinefan 7y ago
My son is taking a programming class in high school - they use repl.it for all their assignments. That makes installation a non-issue; eventually I assume they'll "graduate" to a local install, but it helps them focus on learning the language and not worrying about the environment (yet).
reuven 7y ago
That's definitely not all I tell people to do. And I not only give people instructions, but also personal help when they have trouble installing things. I've been teaching non-programmers for years, and know that they need help getting it set up. I try to offer as much as possible of that kind of help in the course.
danielscrubs 7y ago
Girlfriend is learning programming/Java through a course that was suddenly made into a distance course (because of Corona). She's on the fourth week and the lessons are still 80% about the teacher trying to help students set up the online environment (https://codeanywhere.com https://codeanywhere.com). It seems frustrating for everyone involved.

Ididntdothis 7y ago

I think this is one of the secrets of the success of VBA. Open Excel and you have a full IDE.

tmh88j 7y ago
Perhaps, but I think it's more likely that the only feasible option was to use VBA with excel, and excel is the "default" spreadsheet application used everywhere. It nearly the same reason why JavaScript became the default front end language thanks to Netscape, which was the "excel of browsers" during the dawn of the internet.
contravariant 7y ago
The flipside of this is that you can open an Excel file and expect a full VBA application to begin running immediately. Or well, luckily someone eventually realised that that wasn't a good idea so now they just open with a big warning saying that the file in read only mode. Hopefully you also get some more intelligible warnings when it actually tries to run VB code.

Blake_Emigro 7y ago

You know what's better than criticizing negatively? Helping. So, to avoid being a hypocrite, how can I help you? LOL

reuven 7y ago

I have a Discourse forum that's open to anyone who registers for the course. I've been helping people there to install Python and Jupyter, as well as an IDE (typically PyCharm) if they want.