4 ms·

No, I think most of us realized that. It's still not OK for the CDC to lie to the public, regardless of motive. For a public health organization, the end doesn'

No, I think most of us realized that. It's still not OK for the CDC to lie to the public, regardless of motive. For a public health organization, the end doesn't justify the means. Even more concerning are the number of doctors I've seen blatantly lying about the effectiveness of masks. Most people aren't idiots - if the masks help protect medical professionals from Covid-19, they can also help non-medical professionals. The proper message would have been: masks can be effective, even a bandana can likely help prevent disease transmission. But it's important for Americans to save N95 masks for medical professionals until they're widely available. Given that it's highly likely that wearing any mask helps prevent the spread of the virus by keeping the mask wearer from transmitting it to others, this is what they should have done.

loeg 7y ago
> For a public health organization, the end doesn't justify the means. Why not? This is a classic trolley problem and throwing the switch is absolutely the correct answer.
- chidg 7y ago
  It's not classic trolley problem, because there are no second order effects modeled in the trolley problem. In this case, there is a secondary effect which is that the public realises they've been lied to and loses trust in public health authorities, which is exactly what has happened. You can only do that a couple of times before the authority has no authority.
- MaulingMonkey 7y ago
  It is not even remotely a given that throwing the switch is the correct answer. The Czech Republic made masks mandatory, met that requirement by churning out a bunch of homemade masks, and have supposedly been quite successful in flattening their infection curve in doing so. Going forward, misinformation gives every anti-vaxxer, skeptic, conspiracy theorist, and snake oil peddling bullshitter more ammunition with which to displace effective medical treatment going forward. Even the well meaning general populace becomes skeptical. You know what this results in? Dead kids. Covid parties. Trust in government is already so fucking slow people are throwing covid parties. And now you're suggesting that undermining that trust even more is the obvious answer?
- newsbinator 7y ago
  This is different. A public health organization can only lie at large scale once before it loses the credibility that allows it to function in the first place. ... probably.
- wkearney99 7y ago
  For those of you casually tossing that around: https://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2020/03/25/the-trolley-and-the-psychopath-2/# https://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2020/03/25/the-trolley-and...
DanBC 7y ago
A load of people in this thread are saying the CDC (and others) are lying about masks. For members of the public walking around a mask provides at best marginal benefit, and that's only if the wearer complies with a strict regime of donning and doffing protocols, and if it's combined with a full set of other PPE (disposable gowns, gloves, eye shields) and frequent handwashing. As soon as you drop any of those you're not just making the mask a bit less effective, you're probably increasing the risk over not wearing a mask at all. There are a few routes of transmission - fecal oral; fomites to hand and then to eyes, nose, or mouth; and droplets landing on your eyes or being breathed in. It's likely that in members of the public the main route is touching an infected surface and then touching your eyes, nose or mouth. Masks only help with breathing in droplets, and they only help if they're worn correctly. Incorrect mask wearing increases risk because masks feel weird and cause people to touch their face more often, and because masks give permission to people to go outside and mingle in crowds. There's not much research around whether members of the public can wear PPE correctly, but there's plenty of research around PPE and healthcare professionals. We know that qualified registered healthcare professionals who know the consequences of not wearing PPE correctly still struggle to do it all correctly. > Most people aren't idiots - if the masks help protect medical professionals from Covid-19, they can also help non-medical professionals. The difference is that healthcare professionals spend all day in close contact with symptomatic people and are more likely to come into contact with blood or fecal matter or sputum, and are more likely to be doing aerosol-generating procedures, so the baseline risk is much higher, so that marginal benefit turns into an actual benefit. But importantly they're not just wearing masks. They're wearing gowns and gloves and eye protection and they have access to water and soap and alcohol hand gels and infection control teams to train them on how to wear it correctly. Here's what HCPs are wearing. Are you honestly suggesting this for members of the public? https://twitter.com/QEGateshead/status/1244208756600307712 https://twitter.com/QEGateshead/status/1244208756600307712 Here's a simple graphic for donning: https://twitter.com/agtruesdell/status/1245470479059767297?s=20 https://twitter.com/agtruesdell/status/1245470479059767297?s... Here's a thread talking about donning, wearing, and doffing PPE. https://twitter.com/halletjulie/status/1245409318775767042?s=20 https://twitter.com/halletjulie/status/1245409318775767042?s... This is not the CDC / WHO / etc lying, this is them talking about the science as they understand it. https://twitter.com/shinybluedress/status/1242779780044521475?s=20 https://twitter.com/shinybluedress/status/124277978004452147... > even a bandana can likely help prevent disease transmission You're basing this on a small study carried out in a lab using research bacteria (not viruses) carried in a calibrated spray, that didn't include "people breathing through the mask". You've massively overstated those results.

loeg 7y ago

> For a public health organization, the end doesn't justify the means. Why not? This is a classic trolley problem and throwing the switch is absolutely the correct answer.

chidg 7y ago
It's not classic trolley problem, because there are no second order effects modeled in the trolley problem. In this case, there is a secondary effect which is that the public realises they've been lied to and loses trust in public health authorities, which is exactly what has happened. You can only do that a couple of times before the authority has no authority.
MaulingMonkey 7y ago
It is not even remotely a given that throwing the switch is the correct answer. The Czech Republic made masks mandatory, met that requirement by churning out a bunch of homemade masks, and have supposedly been quite successful in flattening their infection curve in doing so. Going forward, misinformation gives every anti-vaxxer, skeptic, conspiracy theorist, and snake oil peddling bullshitter more ammunition with which to displace effective medical treatment going forward. Even the well meaning general populace becomes skeptical. You know what this results in? Dead kids. Covid parties. Trust in government is already so fucking slow people are throwing covid parties. And now you're suggesting that undermining that trust even more is the obvious answer?
newsbinator 7y ago
This is different. A public health organization can only lie at large scale once before it loses the credibility that allows it to function in the first place. ... probably.
wkearney99 7y ago
For those of you casually tossing that around: https://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2020/03/25/the-trolley-and-the-psychopath-2/# https://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2020/03/25/the-trolley-and...

DanBC 7y ago

A load of people in this thread are saying the CDC (and others) are lying about masks. For members of the public walking around a mask provides at best marginal benefit, and that's only if the wearer complies with a strict regime of donning and doffing protocols, and if it's combined with a full set of other PPE (disposable gowns, gloves, eye shields) and frequent handwashing. As soon as you drop any of those you're not just making the mask a bit less effective, you're probably increasing the risk over not wearing a mask at all. There are a few routes of transmission - fecal oral; fomites to hand and then to eyes, nose, or mouth; and droplets landing on your eyes or being breathed in. It's likely that in members of the public the main route is touching an infected surface and then touching your eyes, nose or mouth. Masks only help with breathing in droplets, and they only help if they're worn correctly. Incorrect mask wearing increases risk because masks feel weird and cause people to touch their face more often, and because masks give permission to people to go outside and mingle in crowds. There's not much research around whether members of the public can wear PPE correctly, but there's plenty of research around PPE and healthcare professionals. We know that qualified registered healthcare professionals who know the consequences of not wearing PPE correctly still struggle to do it all correctly. > Most people aren't idiots - if the masks help protect medical professionals from Covid-19, they can also help non-medical professionals. The difference is that healthcare professionals spend all day in close contact with symptomatic people and are more likely to come into contact with blood or fecal matter or sputum, and are more likely to be doing aerosol-generating procedures, so the baseline risk is much higher, so that marginal benefit turns into an actual benefit. But importantly they're not just wearing masks. They're wearing gowns and gloves and eye protection and they have access to water and soap and alcohol hand gels and infection control teams to train them on how to wear it correctly. Here's what HCPs are wearing. Are you honestly suggesting this for members of the public? https://twitter.com/QEGateshead/status/1244208756600307712 https://twitter.com/QEGateshead/status/1244208756600307712 Here's a simple graphic for donning: https://twitter.com/agtruesdell/status/1245470479059767297?s=20 https://twitter.com/agtruesdell/status/1245470479059767297?s... Here's a thread talking about donning, wearing, and doffing PPE. https://twitter.com/halletjulie/status/1245409318775767042?s=20 https://twitter.com/halletjulie/status/1245409318775767042?s... This is not the CDC / WHO / etc lying, this is them talking about the science as they understand it. https://twitter.com/shinybluedress/status/1242779780044521475?s=20 https://twitter.com/shinybluedress/status/124277978004452147... > even a bandana can likely help prevent disease transmission You're basing this on a small study carried out in a lab using research bacteria (not viruses) carried in a calibrated spray, that didn't include "people breathing through the mask". You've massively overstated those results.