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Did you ever consider that the CDC guidelines for masks were intended to prevent hoarding so that those treating patients on the front lines could access them?

PHGamer 7y ago
right but everyone is out and about. while people in asian wore masks when they went grocery shppping. i get what they did but they screwed civilians for sure in the name of saving doctors. they actively lied about them being needed so one group would have a better chance. the truth is if you were going to have any contact with someone you needed a mask.
- loeg 7y ago
  > i get what they did but they screwed civilians for sure in the name of saving doctors. they actively lied about them being needed so one group would have a better chance. Think a moment. The sick people need the doctors and nurses alive. Stripping the supply of PPE for medical professionals is lose-lose for everyone. Even if only all of the high-risk non-medical-workers bought effective masks, it would obliterate the supply available to nurses and doctors.
  - bbarnett 7y ago
    Think indeed. Lie once, lie always. Honesty is imperative for a public trust. Now, what do you think the crazy anti-vaxxers will say, next time they're told to trust the CDC, and other public bodies, and that vaccination is safe, and makes sense? When a vaccine is created, perhaps, for this virus? Now it is easier to convince others that the truth is concealed. That lies abound. Any medical official should lose their license, for spreading quackery.
wetpaws 7y ago
Front line personel and hospitals should've been prepared months if not years in advance.
rendall 7y ago
A public entity, whose stated mission is to provide timely and accurate information to the public, actually lies to the public in order to influence some third-hand outcome, such as less hoarding: a net positive? I would argue no, not a net positive at all. To start, nearly everyone now distrusts the CDC (and WHO) to deliver accurate information.
- loeg 7y ago
  That is not their mission, stated or otherwise. The repeated emphasis is on health and saving lives. > CDC works 24/7 to protect America from health, safety and security threats, both foreign and in the U.S. Whether diseases start at home or abroad, are chronic or acute, curable or preventable, human error or deliberate attack, CDC fights disease and supports communities and citizens to do the same. > CDC increases the health security of our nation. As the nation’s health protection agency, CDC saves lives and protects people from health threats. To accomplish our mission, CDC conducts critical science and provides health information that protects our nation against expensive and dangerous health threats, and responds when these arise. I think the same people who were inclined to distrust health organizations probably continue to do so, and the folks who were inclined to trust health organizations probably continue to do so as well.
  - MaulingMonkey 7y ago
    >> CDC conducts critical science and provides health information Lies undermine all of this. Lies undermine the means by which they accomplish their mission. > the folks who were inclined to trust health organizations probably continue to do so as well One point of ancedata: not all of us.
  - asdkjh345fd 7y ago
    >The repeated emphasis is on health and saving lives. And they just killed thousands of people, potentially tens of thousands. They know, as we have known for decades, that even simple, home made, cloth masks provide a huge reduction in the spread of respiratory diseases. >I think the same people who were inclined to distrust health organizations probably continue to do so, and the folks who were inclined to trust health organizations probably continue to do so as well. Anecdotally, that does not seem to be the case. I don't know anyone who trusts the CDC or WHO now, and a bunch of people now think the WHO is a Chinese organization trying to deliberately kill Americans, and the CDC has been infiltrated and subverted by them. That seems like a major barrier to effectively preventing future epidemics.
Vomzor 7y ago
They should have told the truth. “Mask help but we don’t have enough of them. We need to reserve the few we have for doctors and nurses. People should use diy masks until we have more. It’s not perfect but it will still help to flatten the curve.“
jnbiche 7y ago
No, I think most of us realized that. It's still not OK for the CDC to lie to the public, regardless of motive. For a public health organization, the end doesn't justify the means. Even more concerning are the number of doctors I've seen blatantly lying about the effectiveness of masks. Most people aren't idiots - if the masks help protect medical professionals from Covid-19, they can also help non-medical professionals. The proper message would have been: masks can be effective, even a bandana can likely help prevent disease transmission. But it's important for Americans to save N95 masks for medical professionals until they're widely available. Given that it's highly likely that wearing any mask helps prevent the spread of the virus by keeping the mask wearer from transmitting it to others, this is what they should have done.
- loeg 7y ago
  > For a public health organization, the end doesn't justify the means. Why not? This is a classic trolley problem and throwing the switch is absolutely the correct answer.
  - chidg 7y ago
    It's not classic trolley problem, because there are no second order effects modeled in the trolley problem. In this case, there is a secondary effect which is that the public realises they've been lied to and loses trust in public health authorities, which is exactly what has happened. You can only do that a couple of times before the authority has no authority.
  - MaulingMonkey 7y ago
    It is not even remotely a given that throwing the switch is the correct answer. The Czech Republic made masks mandatory, met that requirement by churning out a bunch of homemade masks, and have supposedly been quite successful in flattening their infection curve in doing so. Going forward, misinformation gives every anti-vaxxer, skeptic, conspiracy theorist, and snake oil peddling bullshitter more ammunition with which to displace effective medical treatment going forward. Even the well meaning general populace becomes skeptical. You know what this results in? Dead kids. Covid parties. Trust in government is already so fucking slow people are throwing covid parties. And now you're suggesting that undermining that trust even more is the obvious answer?

PHGamer 7y ago

right but everyone is out and about. while people in asian wore masks when they went grocery shppping. i get what they did but they screwed civilians for sure in the name of saving doctors. they actively lied about them being needed so one group would have a better chance. the truth is if you were going to have any contact with someone you needed a mask.

loeg 7y ago
> i get what they did but they screwed civilians for sure in the name of saving doctors. they actively lied about them being needed so one group would have a better chance. Think a moment. The sick people need the doctors and nurses alive. Stripping the supply of PPE for medical professionals is lose-lose for everyone. Even if only all of the high-risk non-medical-workers bought effective masks, it would obliterate the supply available to nurses and doctors.
- bbarnett 7y ago
  Think indeed. Lie once, lie always. Honesty is imperative for a public trust. Now, what do you think the crazy anti-vaxxers will say, next time they're told to trust the CDC, and other public bodies, and that vaccination is safe, and makes sense? When a vaccine is created, perhaps, for this virus? Now it is easier to convince others that the truth is concealed. That lies abound. Any medical official should lose their license, for spreading quackery.

wetpaws 7y ago

Front line personel and hospitals should've been prepared months if not years in advance.

rendall 7y ago

A public entity, whose stated mission is to provide timely and accurate information to the public, actually lies to the public in order to influence some third-hand outcome, such as less hoarding: a net positive? I would argue no, not a net positive at all. To start, nearly everyone now distrusts the CDC (and WHO) to deliver accurate information.

loeg 7y ago
That is not their mission, stated or otherwise. The repeated emphasis is on health and saving lives. > CDC works 24/7 to protect America from health, safety and security threats, both foreign and in the U.S. Whether diseases start at home or abroad, are chronic or acute, curable or preventable, human error or deliberate attack, CDC fights disease and supports communities and citizens to do the same. > CDC increases the health security of our nation. As the nation’s health protection agency, CDC saves lives and protects people from health threats. To accomplish our mission, CDC conducts critical science and provides health information that protects our nation against expensive and dangerous health threats, and responds when these arise. I think the same people who were inclined to distrust health organizations probably continue to do so, and the folks who were inclined to trust health organizations probably continue to do so as well.
- MaulingMonkey 7y ago
  >> CDC conducts critical science and provides health information Lies undermine all of this. Lies undermine the means by which they accomplish their mission. > the folks who were inclined to trust health organizations probably continue to do so as well One point of ancedata: not all of us.
- asdkjh345fd 7y ago
  >The repeated emphasis is on health and saving lives. And they just killed thousands of people, potentially tens of thousands. They know, as we have known for decades, that even simple, home made, cloth masks provide a huge reduction in the spread of respiratory diseases. >I think the same people who were inclined to distrust health organizations probably continue to do so, and the folks who were inclined to trust health organizations probably continue to do so as well. Anecdotally, that does not seem to be the case. I don't know anyone who trusts the CDC or WHO now, and a bunch of people now think the WHO is a Chinese organization trying to deliberately kill Americans, and the CDC has been infiltrated and subverted by them. That seems like a major barrier to effectively preventing future epidemics.

Vomzor 7y ago

They should have told the truth. “Mask help but we don’t have enough of them. We need to reserve the few we have for doctors and nurses. People should use diy masks until we have more. It’s not perfect but it will still help to flatten the curve.“

jnbiche 7y ago

No, I think most of us realized that. It's still not OK for the CDC to lie to the public, regardless of motive. For a public health organization, the end doesn't justify the means. Even more concerning are the number of doctors I've seen blatantly lying about the effectiveness of masks. Most people aren't idiots - if the masks help protect medical professionals from Covid-19, they can also help non-medical professionals. The proper message would have been: masks can be effective, even a bandana can likely help prevent disease transmission. But it's important for Americans to save N95 masks for medical professionals until they're widely available. Given that it's highly likely that wearing any mask helps prevent the spread of the virus by keeping the mask wearer from transmitting it to others, this is what they should have done.

loeg 7y ago
> For a public health organization, the end doesn't justify the means. Why not? This is a classic trolley problem and throwing the switch is absolutely the correct answer.
- chidg 7y ago
  It's not classic trolley problem, because there are no second order effects modeled in the trolley problem. In this case, there is a secondary effect which is that the public realises they've been lied to and loses trust in public health authorities, which is exactly what has happened. You can only do that a couple of times before the authority has no authority.
- MaulingMonkey 7y ago
  It is not even remotely a given that throwing the switch is the correct answer. The Czech Republic made masks mandatory, met that requirement by churning out a bunch of homemade masks, and have supposedly been quite successful in flattening their infection curve in doing so. Going forward, misinformation gives every anti-vaxxer, skeptic, conspiracy theorist, and snake oil peddling bullshitter more ammunition with which to displace effective medical treatment going forward. Even the well meaning general populace becomes skeptical. You know what this results in? Dead kids. Covid parties. Trust in government is already so fucking slow people are throwing covid parties. And now you're suggesting that undermining that trust even more is the obvious answer?