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I also don't know what I'm talking about, but I think one of the core responsibilities of a trademark owner is that you establish a history of defending it. I h

I also don't know what I'm talking about, but I think one of the core responsibilities of a trademark owner is that you establish a history of defending it. I heard once that if you don't do that you risk losing control of your rights to that property. Any smarty pants on here able to confirm/set me straight?

jussij 7y ago
From the page: As for proximity of the products, while AM General may license out the rights to depict Humvees in games and toys, the judge isn't impressed because that's not its central purpose as a business. I also may not know what I'm talking about, but that statement by the judge suggests that in this case, AM General was not so much interested in protecting it's trademark, but rather more interested in enforce some sort of licensing payment.
crooked-v 7y ago
This is called trademark erosion. An example of this historically would be aspirin, which was originally a trademarked brand name of Bayer but was legally ruled in 1918 and 1921 to have become genericized, because the company took no actions to prevent others from using the name. This generally only applies when non-holders use the trademark to market in the same field as the original business, though: not "we went to McDonald's", but rather "welcome to McDonald's (no relation to the corporate giant), would you like fries with that?". It doesn't apply in this case because the Call of Duty series has nothing to do with selling vehicles.
- solinent 7y ago
  The standard example I've heard is for Trampoline. No one calls them rebound tumblers anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline#First_modern_trampolines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline#First_modern_trampo... I think this is really just a case of lawyers being super-protective. It also pays well, I'm sure. I think a words like Humvee or even Google have coloquially already lost their meaning--their meaning is polymorphic, it's only a matter of time (100 years is a matter of time) before a better Humvee or Google not released by the original product designer comes along that people will call Humvee or Google anyways.
  - Swizec 7y ago
    Trader Joe’s makes the best kleenex. And my iPhone captures the best kodak moments. I also enjoy facetiming via Slack. And of course googling for music is best done on Spotify.
    - oliveshell 7y ago
      Haha, yep. Personally, my friends and I have been skype-ing through Discord a lot recently.
    - mnemonicsloth 7y ago
      Hardly anybody remembers nowadays but Elevators and Fridges used to be brand names (of the Otis Elevator company and Frigidaire, respectively). So the endpoint of nobody remembering that your IP is IP has been reached in practice. And more recently there's the PC, which became detached from IBM in record time.
      - thaumasiotes 7y ago
        > Elevators and Fridges used to be brand names (of the Otis Elevator company and Frigidaire, respectively) There's no real reason to think "fridge" is shortened from "Frigidaire" as opposed to "refrigerator".
        Talanes 7y ago
        And plenty of reason to think against. The "dg" sound doesn't come through in "Frigidaire" at all. It does have an actual letter "d" present, but with the "i" in between the sound becomes entirely different. Compare to refrigerator, where the "frige" portion of the word slants easily to rhyme with "ridge."
        thaumasiotes 7y ago
        I can't go that far. What country are you from? I would have said the second syllable of "refrigerator", and the first syllable of "Frigidaire", both obligatorily rhyme with "ridge". There's no alternative. "Frigidaire" should only really differ from "frigid air" in terms of prosody.
- bonestamp2 7y ago
  > It doesn't apply in this case because the Call of Duty series has nothing to do with selling vehicles. I understand that the trademark itself is only protected within the same field, but it seems pretty common to defend trademarks across other fields.
  - dsr_ 7y ago
    That sentence doesn't make sense to me. A trademark can only be defended in the face of an incursion into a protected use. If it's an "other field", then it can't be defended and the suit fails.
    - bonestamp2 7y ago
      Fair enough and technically, I think you're right that it's not a "defense" with legal precedence (and therefore not an actual defense). But, I don't think that reality stops many companies from trying to stop the use of their brand or product in other fields because they believe they're protecting the brand. That said, this AM General case seems to be a licensing case -- they want money for the use of the of their design. To some degree, I don't blame them since Activision is profiting from their work.
      - dsr_ 7y ago
        Suppose Activision sets a game in Los Angeles. A crucial mission involves a running battle down Hollywood Boulevard. Should Graumann's Chinese Theater be entitled to money for the use of the appearance of their famous building? To what extent should Google pay AM General, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, and so forth for the use of their vehicles' appearances in Streetview? Finally: someone makes a Mail Simulator game, in which you take the role of being a first-class letter trying to get to a particular house on the other side of the continent. The role of postal vehicle is played by a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV How much do they owe to Grumman, or to the USPS, or GM?
        jmalicki 7y ago
- YokoZar 7y ago
  Aspirin didn't become generic because Bayer "took no action", it became generic because the trademark was surrendered as an explicit term in the Treaty of Versailles. Most trademarks these days don't need to worry about being the literal spoils of war.
  - neilparikh 7y ago
    Bayer lost their trademark because Treaty of Versailles, but it became generic later in a court case due to lack of action. Edit: Actually, I think Bayer lost it even earlier, during the war, through the Trading with the Enemy Act.
deleted 7y ago
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djsumdog 7y ago
Yep, so this serve the companies interest because they're trying to defend their trademark; even if they failed. I doubt Humvee is in danger of becoming a generic term (Jeep is more likely; I cannot tell you much my it annoyed me my ex called her Suzuki 4x4 a "Jeep" .. it's not a Jeep! It's a 4x4 or off-roader.." but if they enter into other trademark battles, the opposing council can't say "Well they haven't tried to defend their trademark before now..."
- filoleg 7y ago
  Interesting you bring up a point about Jeep. Never once in the US I've heard of a non-Jeep-made SUV referred to as a "Jeep". But back when I lived in Russia, every single SUV was referred to as a "Jeep". I don't even know of another word for SUV in Russian. Not trying to argue against you btw, I just personally find stuff like this interesting. EDIT: just checked the wikipedia page for SUV in russian, and yep, in the second paragraph it says that SUVs are usually referred to as "Jeeps" in post-Soviet countries.
  - DenisM 7y ago
    Another word is внедорожник, or off-roader: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE... The legend has it that when economic restrictions were relaxed towards the end of the SU someone bartered a huge quantity of a natural resource (coal?) for a huge number Jeep Grand Cherokee vehicles. So around that time they were only types of cars in SU - subpar Soviet cars and fancy American Jeeps.
    - filoleg 7y ago
      Oh yeah, thanks for bringing it up, totally forgot about this one. Ironically, I've only heard of it being used when it comes to the actual Jeep-made vehicles and stuff like Rav4/Land Cruiser, so it seems to be used pretty accurately.
    - boring_twenties 7y ago
      No idea if it's at all common, but my favorite that I've heard is вездеход.
AdrianB1 7y ago
If not making a fool of themselves in the process, yes. Common sense is much needed in such situations, I would say.
- kube-system 7y ago
  What's the cost-benefit analysis between choosing to do so, or not? I'd guess that the cost of making a fool of one's self for trademark enforcement is usually pretty low... especially if your target customer doesn't make purchasing decisions based on it.
  - AdrianB1 7y ago
    The cost for the lawyers? Not cheap at all.
    - kube-system 7y ago
      If you're a small business, it's expensive. If you have some on staff, it might not be.
KingFelix 7y ago
I too don't know what I am talking about, but I think I prefer Halo of Call of Duty. Console LAN parties, the good old days. I agree with Smabie though, I think it would bring more to the brand. Also tinkertamper your thoughts appear pretty sound too. Carry on
deleted 7y ago
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bootlooped 7y ago
I have read an alternate strategy here is to license the use of the name for free. Them accepting the license implies that you have the legal rights to it, and licensed uses cannot be used as evidence for trademark erosion. I'm not a lawyer, but it sounds believable.
deleted 7y ago
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jussij 7y ago

From the page: As for proximity of the products, while AM General may license out the rights to depict Humvees in games and toys, the judge isn't impressed because that's not its central purpose as a business. I also may not know what I'm talking about, but that statement by the judge suggests that in this case, AM General was not so much interested in protecting it's trademark, but rather more interested in enforce some sort of licensing payment.

crooked-v 7y ago

This is called trademark erosion. An example of this historically would be aspirin, which was originally a trademarked brand name of Bayer but was legally ruled in 1918 and 1921 to have become genericized, because the company took no actions to prevent others from using the name. This generally only applies when non-holders use the trademark to market in the same field as the original business, though: not "we went to McDonald's", but rather "welcome to McDonald's (no relation to the corporate giant), would you like fries with that?". It doesn't apply in this case because the Call of Duty series has nothing to do with selling vehicles.

solinent 7y ago
The standard example I've heard is for Trampoline. No one calls them rebound tumblers anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline#First_modern_trampolines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline#First_modern_trampo... I think this is really just a case of lawyers being super-protective. It also pays well, I'm sure. I think a words like Humvee or even Google have coloquially already lost their meaning--their meaning is polymorphic, it's only a matter of time (100 years is a matter of time) before a better Humvee or Google not released by the original product designer comes along that people will call Humvee or Google anyways.
- Swizec 7y ago
  Trader Joe’s makes the best kleenex. And my iPhone captures the best kodak moments. I also enjoy facetiming via Slack. And of course googling for music is best done on Spotify.
  - oliveshell 7y ago
    Haha, yep. Personally, my friends and I have been skype-ing through Discord a lot recently.
  - mnemonicsloth 7y ago
    Hardly anybody remembers nowadays but Elevators and Fridges used to be brand names (of the Otis Elevator company and Frigidaire, respectively). So the endpoint of nobody remembering that your IP is IP has been reached in practice. And more recently there's the PC, which became detached from IBM in record time.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      > Elevators and Fridges used to be brand names (of the Otis Elevator company and Frigidaire, respectively) There's no real reason to think "fridge" is shortened from "Frigidaire" as opposed to "refrigerator".
      - Talanes 7y ago
        And plenty of reason to think against. The "dg" sound doesn't come through in "Frigidaire" at all. It does have an actual letter "d" present, but with the "i" in between the sound becomes entirely different. Compare to refrigerator, where the "frige" portion of the word slants easily to rhyme with "ridge."
        thaumasiotes 7y ago
        I can't go that far. What country are you from? I would have said the second syllable of "refrigerator", and the first syllable of "Frigidaire", both obligatorily rhyme with "ridge". There's no alternative. "Frigidaire" should only really differ from "frigid air" in terms of prosody.
bonestamp2 7y ago
> It doesn't apply in this case because the Call of Duty series has nothing to do with selling vehicles. I understand that the trademark itself is only protected within the same field, but it seems pretty common to defend trademarks across other fields.
- dsr_ 7y ago
  That sentence doesn't make sense to me. A trademark can only be defended in the face of an incursion into a protected use. If it's an "other field", then it can't be defended and the suit fails.
  - bonestamp2 7y ago
    Fair enough and technically, I think you're right that it's not a "defense" with legal precedence (and therefore not an actual defense). But, I don't think that reality stops many companies from trying to stop the use of their brand or product in other fields because they believe they're protecting the brand. That said, this AM General case seems to be a licensing case -- they want money for the use of the of their design. To some degree, I don't blame them since Activision is profiting from their work.
    - dsr_ 7y ago
      Suppose Activision sets a game in Los Angeles. A crucial mission involves a running battle down Hollywood Boulevard. Should Graumann's Chinese Theater be entitled to money for the use of the appearance of their famous building? To what extent should Google pay AM General, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, and so forth for the use of their vehicles' appearances in Streetview? Finally: someone makes a Mail Simulator game, in which you take the role of being a first-class letter trying to get to a particular house on the other side of the continent. The role of postal vehicle is played by a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV How much do they owe to Grumman, or to the USPS, or GM?
      - jmalicki 7y ago
YokoZar 7y ago
Aspirin didn't become generic because Bayer "took no action", it became generic because the trademark was surrendered as an explicit term in the Treaty of Versailles. Most trademarks these days don't need to worry about being the literal spoils of war.
- neilparikh 7y ago
  Bayer lost their trademark because Treaty of Versailles, but it became generic later in a court case due to lack of action. Edit: Actually, I think Bayer lost it even earlier, during the war, through the Trading with the Enemy Act.

deleted 7y ago

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djsumdog 7y ago

Yep, so this serve the companies interest because they're trying to defend their trademark; even if they failed. I doubt Humvee is in danger of becoming a generic term (Jeep is more likely; I cannot tell you much my it annoyed me my ex called her Suzuki 4x4 a "Jeep" .. it's not a Jeep! It's a 4x4 or off-roader.." but if they enter into other trademark battles, the opposing council can't say "Well they haven't tried to defend their trademark before now..."

filoleg 7y ago
Interesting you bring up a point about Jeep. Never once in the US I've heard of a non-Jeep-made SUV referred to as a "Jeep". But back when I lived in Russia, every single SUV was referred to as a "Jeep". I don't even know of another word for SUV in Russian. Not trying to argue against you btw, I just personally find stuff like this interesting. EDIT: just checked the wikipedia page for SUV in russian, and yep, in the second paragraph it says that SUVs are usually referred to as "Jeeps" in post-Soviet countries.
- DenisM 7y ago
  Another word is внедорожник, or off-roader: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE... The legend has it that when economic restrictions were relaxed towards the end of the SU someone bartered a huge quantity of a natural resource (coal?) for a huge number Jeep Grand Cherokee vehicles. So around that time they were only types of cars in SU - subpar Soviet cars and fancy American Jeeps.
  - filoleg 7y ago
    Oh yeah, thanks for bringing it up, totally forgot about this one. Ironically, I've only heard of it being used when it comes to the actual Jeep-made vehicles and stuff like Rav4/Land Cruiser, so it seems to be used pretty accurately.
  - boring_twenties 7y ago
    No idea if it's at all common, but my favorite that I've heard is вездеход.

AdrianB1 7y ago

If not making a fool of themselves in the process, yes. Common sense is much needed in such situations, I would say.

kube-system 7y ago
What's the cost-benefit analysis between choosing to do so, or not? I'd guess that the cost of making a fool of one's self for trademark enforcement is usually pretty low... especially if your target customer doesn't make purchasing decisions based on it.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  The cost for the lawyers? Not cheap at all.
  - kube-system 7y ago
    If you're a small business, it's expensive. If you have some on staff, it might not be.

KingFelix 7y ago

I too don't know what I am talking about, but I think I prefer Halo of Call of Duty. Console LAN parties, the good old days. I agree with Smabie though, I think it would bring more to the brand. Also tinkertamper your thoughts appear pretty sound too. Carry on

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

bootlooped 7y ago

I have read an alternate strategy here is to license the use of the name for free. Them accepting the license implies that you have the legal rights to it, and licensed uses cannot be used as evidence for trademark erosion. I'm not a lawyer, but it sounds believable.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]