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Does anyone actually believe China’s reported numbers?

by unstatusthequo 7y ago

sneak 7y ago
Does anyone actually believe the US'? This is not a nationalistic thing, don't make it such.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  It is definitely a nationalistic thing, but that said, the U.S. is almost as nationalistic as China so no, I don't believe our numbers either
- rumanator 7y ago
  > Does anyone actually believe the US'? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism More importantly, the US isn't pretending to be a poster child of successful epidemic containment, nor did it caused the pandemic by systematically lying about how easily the virus spread between humans. The Chinese government is the sole responsible for this whole mess due to the extensive lying and disinformation campaign it mounted around the epidemic, turning it into a historical disaster.
  - claudiawerner 7y ago
    I don't have much to say on the topic, but it's wrong to call any questioning back "whataboutism". Whataboutism applies to cases in which criticism is deflected by a replying with criticism in turn. It does not apply when the criticism can be accepted and new criticism is offered. In other words, reading support or acceptance of Chinese statistics into GP's reply effectively fabricates "whataboutism". The point, in a charitable reading, is "Sure, Chinese numbers can't be trusted. But can the U.S.'s numbers be trusted?" - this interpretation does not lend any support to China, and merely points out that we need to be skeptical of both. The origin of the concept whataboutism lies with the USSR deflecting criticism by saying what the US was doing is worse. It was not an admission and then mutual criticism. That's the key difference. Case 1 (whataboutism): A: China can't be trusted to give out accurate numbers. B: Oh really? What about the US? The US is doing worse! Case 2 (not whataboutism): A: China can't be trusted to give out accurate numbers. B: Maybe that's true - but can the US' numbers be trusted either?
    - sneak 7y ago
      Indeed, my comment is to point out that no large country seems to be handling this very well or transparently. There is a lot of face-saving going on by everyone as leaders scramble to preserve reputation in every place on Earth, to varying degrees. Smaller countries seem to be doing less of it. I'm not sure if that's due to some inherent trait, or simply correlated with size. Large countries are all operating IMO shamefully, lying blatantly in predictable ways through the ascent phases. It seems to me inaccurate to pick out any single one.
hker 7y ago
Apparently many local Chinese, including the government of a neighboring province, do not believe in the reported numbers. Recently on March 25, the central government ordered to end the isolation imposed on cities of Hubei (the epicenter province). But the police from Jiangxi province (which borders Hubei) blocked the people from Hubei for fear of epidemic, resulting in a clash [1]. One reason why Jiangxi distrusted the official propaganda is that the Beijing government still have stricter measures for Hubei residents. [1]: http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Clashes-and-protests:-Hubei-residents-rejected-by-Jiangxi-for-fear-of-epidemic-49686.html http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Clashes-and-protests:-Hubei-r... And regardless of the trust issues, the numbers from China may be measured differently from other places. For example, asymptomatic cases were not reported as positives, deaths due to complications did not count towards COVID-19 deaths, etc.

Does anyone actually believe China’s reported numbers?

sneak 7y ago

Does anyone actually believe the US'? This is not a nationalistic thing, don't make it such.

_bxg1 7y ago
It is definitely a nationalistic thing, but that said, the U.S. is almost as nationalistic as China so no, I don't believe our numbers either
rumanator 7y ago
> Does anyone actually believe the US'? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism More importantly, the US isn't pretending to be a poster child of successful epidemic containment, nor did it caused the pandemic by systematically lying about how easily the virus spread between humans. The Chinese government is the sole responsible for this whole mess due to the extensive lying and disinformation campaign it mounted around the epidemic, turning it into a historical disaster.
- claudiawerner 7y ago
  I don't have much to say on the topic, but it's wrong to call any questioning back "whataboutism". Whataboutism applies to cases in which criticism is deflected by a replying with criticism in turn. It does not apply when the criticism can be accepted and new criticism is offered. In other words, reading support or acceptance of Chinese statistics into GP's reply effectively fabricates "whataboutism". The point, in a charitable reading, is "Sure, Chinese numbers can't be trusted. But can the U.S.'s numbers be trusted?" - this interpretation does not lend any support to China, and merely points out that we need to be skeptical of both. The origin of the concept whataboutism lies with the USSR deflecting criticism by saying what the US was doing is worse. It was not an admission and then mutual criticism. That's the key difference. Case 1 (whataboutism): A: China can't be trusted to give out accurate numbers. B: Oh really? What about the US? The US is doing worse! Case 2 (not whataboutism): A: China can't be trusted to give out accurate numbers. B: Maybe that's true - but can the US' numbers be trusted either?
  - sneak 7y ago
    Indeed, my comment is to point out that no large country seems to be handling this very well or transparently. There is a lot of face-saving going on by everyone as leaders scramble to preserve reputation in every place on Earth, to varying degrees. Smaller countries seem to be doing less of it. I'm not sure if that's due to some inherent trait, or simply correlated with size. Large countries are all operating IMO shamefully, lying blatantly in predictable ways through the ascent phases. It seems to me inaccurate to pick out any single one.

hker 7y ago

Apparently many local Chinese, including the government of a neighboring province, do not believe in the reported numbers. Recently on March 25, the central government ordered to end the isolation imposed on cities of Hubei (the epicenter province). But the police from Jiangxi province (which borders Hubei) blocked the people from Hubei for fear of epidemic, resulting in a clash [1]. One reason why Jiangxi distrusted the official propaganda is that the Beijing government still have stricter measures for Hubei residents. [1]: http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Clashes-and-protests:-Hubei-residents-rejected-by-Jiangxi-for-fear-of-epidemic-49686.html http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Clashes-and-protests:-Hubei-r... And regardless of the trust issues, the numbers from China may be measured differently from other places. For example, asymptomatic cases were not reported as positives, deaths due to complications did not count towards COVID-19 deaths, etc.