4 ms·

I thought here in the west that it was well-established that temperature checks and mask do not work against the corona?!

by chvid 7y ago

amiga_500 7y ago
I have a hard time believing that everyone wearing a mask when interacting doesn't inhibit a disease transmitted via vapor in our breath.
- btilly 7y ago
  There is actually a debate about this. A bad mask (eg a bandanna) means less virus gets out, but it is more likely to get out in the form of a fine aerosol that hangs in the air for hours. On the opposite end it is a reminder not to touch your face (prevents transmission from your hands) but won't stop you from breathing in an aerosol. Likely still a net win, but kinda a hard thing to do good research on. There is no doubt that masks that are designed to block things the size of viruses help. Just issues about who is the highest priority to get them when they are in short supply.
  - xkapastel 7y ago
    Aerosol is not any more likely to get out than not wearing anything. And a bad mask prevents droplets from getting in as well.
    - btilly 7y ago
      I can't find the source on which I based my aerosol comment on, but the idea was that a large droplet which would have fallen gets trapped by the cloth. When it gets through, it comes out as a fine mist. Given that I can't find it repeated, I suspect that it may be misinformation on my part.
  - erik 7y ago
    > A bad mask (eg a bandanna) means less virus gets out, but it is more likely to get out in the form of a fine aerosol Do you have a reference for this? I've only ever heard of aerosolization primarily being a concern around people on breathing assistance equipment.
    - btilly 7y ago
      I can't find the source I saw it in, but the idea is this. If you cough, large droplets coat the inside of the cloth, and then are forced through the weave of the cloth and come out as small droplets. The smaller the droplet, the better it hangs out in the air.
  - amiga_500 7y ago
    > Just issues about who is the highest priority to get them when they are in short supply. The root cause is offshoring safety critical manufacturing: https://www.wired.com/story/decades-offshoring-led-mask-shortage-pandemic/ https://www.wired.com/story/decades-offshoring-led-mask-shor...
  - Ensorceled 7y ago
    Who is debating this? I haven't seen a reliable "con" side of this debate, they are all weird "people will take less care", "cloth masks are not as good as N95", "people will wear them poorly and the mask won't be as effective". These are all "perfect is the enemy of good" fallacies, not "debate". Also, how does a bad mask increase aerosol? That makes no sense.
    - btilly 7y ago
      See http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentar... for a reliable "con" side of the debate. Note in particular that cloth masks were tried and failed during the Spanish flu epidemic.
- rocha 7y ago
  My understanding is that the main transmission medium is respiratory droplets.
marcinzm 7y ago
The perfect is the enemy of the good. These measures aren't about stopping the spread but slowing it down. An N95 mask (if you can get one) will keep you from getting infected and a surgical mask will keep others from getting infected by you. Temperature checks won't catch everyone but will catch some percentage of sick people.
- erik 7y ago
  N95 masks need to go to hospitals first. They don't really make sense for the general public to be wearing. They are difficult to fit properly, and not comfortable for continuous wear. They are believed to be primarily needed when dealing with patients on oxygen / ventilators / etc. Surgical masks do make sense for the general public. They are much easier to wear, and they still offer a good amount of filtration for the wearer. Plus they have the benefit you mentioned of preventing the wearer from infecting others. Where surgical masks aren't available, cloth masks still appear to offer some benefit. And there are designs that include a pocket for paper filters.
lacker 7y ago
Unfortunately, it’s becoming more clear that the government-science bodies like the CDC and the WHO have been spreading inaccurate information.
- twomoretime 7y ago
  What's clear is that the entire system has degenerated as the competence of the average person has been eroded over the last few decades. Failures across the board. Federal government, state government, local government, hospitals, insurance companies - no one in positions of authority saw this coming in January? No one with clout or power had the foresight to stockpile masks or other PPE, just in case? Why isn't a national emergency stockpile being maintained when we've seen a dozen potential global pandemics in the last decade alone? Apparently even officials aren't immune to senseless groupthink.
  - macintux 7y ago
    I can't believe the U.S. Navy didn't implement a ban on shore leave, or allowing anyone new onto their ships, 6-8 weeks ago. Incredible incompetence.
  - krapp 7y ago
    >Failures across the board. Federal government, local government, hospitals, insurance companies - no one in positions of authority saw this coming in January? People did see it coming. The administration ignored early warnings about the virus and publicly downplayed the severity of the issue in order to preserve the stock market and Trump's poll numbers in an election year. This after dismantling much of the infrastructure and firing the personnel needed to respond to this issue in order to cut costs.
    - twomoretime 7y ago
      This failure goes far deeper than Trump. There are so many people in so many positions of authority who could have acted - administrators allocating funds for emergency stockpiles, both private and public. Police, fire, everyone was sitting with their ass up their thumb waiting for what, big brother government to tell them to do something? The administration ignored early warnings about the virus and publicly downplayed the severity of the issue in order to preserve the stock market and Trump's poll numbers in an election year. This after dismantling much of the infrastructure and firing the personnel needed to respond to this issue in order to cut costs. This is nonsense, if you presume the administration knew what was coming then they would have known that this would last up until election season, as it likely will. Unless you're implying that they waited deliberately for it to get worse so they could "fix" it. But you'd never prove something like that. In any case that still doesn't excuse the other tens of thousands of people for individually and collectively failing to act. I started stockpiling mid January.
ravenstine 7y ago
Temperature checks don't seem to work particularly well if enough people carry the virus without symptoms, but if I'm to believe that masks don't impede the movement of sneeze droplets, then I'm the King of Finland.
- umanwizard 7y ago
  The point of temperature checks, or any mitigation measure, is not to reduce spread to 0, but to decrease it. Why don’t you think temperature checks work? Are you aware that even stopping 1/3 of transmissions would have a massive effect on the final outcome?
TylerE 7y ago
Given how infectious it is, even if these measures only reduce transmission by 10% that is very useful
macspoofing 7y ago
I'm not sure if you're facetious or not, but that's not what I've read. Neither of those is foolproof for detecting/preventing coronavirus infections, but they are better than nothing.
- chvid 7y ago
  Facetious. I think our politicians should have started with stuff like this rather going full on North Korea.
DasIch 7y ago
Mask do not protect the person wearing the mask (unless you talk about the kind of masks used as PPE for medical professionals). They do protect other people from the person wearing the mask spreading the virus. The consequence is that for masks to work at scale a large number of people need to wear them.
- xkapastel 7y ago
  Any barrier in front of your mouth and nose will protect you from droplets[0], as well as protecting other people from your own droplets. [0]: https://medium.com/@Cancerwarrior/covid-19-why-we-should-all-wear-masks-there-is-new-scientific-rationale-280e08ceee71 https://medium.com/@Cancerwarrior/covid-19-why-we-should-all...
- adrr 7y ago
  CDC says that to the public yet in their information to doctors and nurses says a bandanna or scarf can substitute for an N95 mask but with less effectiveness.
- umanwizard 7y ago
  > Mask do not protect the person wearing the mask (unless you talk about the kind of masks used as PPE for medical professionals). Please link to research that backs up your claim.
umanwizard 7y ago
Please link research.

I thought here in the west that it was well-established that temperature checks and mask do not work against the corona?!

by chvid 7y ago

I thought here in the west that it was well-established that temperature checks and mask do not work against the corona?!

amiga_500 7y ago

I have a hard time believing that everyone wearing a mask when interacting doesn't inhibit a disease transmitted via vapor in our breath.

btilly 7y ago
There is actually a debate about this. A bad mask (eg a bandanna) means less virus gets out, but it is more likely to get out in the form of a fine aerosol that hangs in the air for hours. On the opposite end it is a reminder not to touch your face (prevents transmission from your hands) but won't stop you from breathing in an aerosol. Likely still a net win, but kinda a hard thing to do good research on. There is no doubt that masks that are designed to block things the size of viruses help. Just issues about who is the highest priority to get them when they are in short supply.
- xkapastel 7y ago
  Aerosol is not any more likely to get out than not wearing anything. And a bad mask prevents droplets from getting in as well.
  - btilly 7y ago
    I can't find the source on which I based my aerosol comment on, but the idea was that a large droplet which would have fallen gets trapped by the cloth. When it gets through, it comes out as a fine mist. Given that I can't find it repeated, I suspect that it may be misinformation on my part.
- erik 7y ago
  > A bad mask (eg a bandanna) means less virus gets out, but it is more likely to get out in the form of a fine aerosol Do you have a reference for this? I've only ever heard of aerosolization primarily being a concern around people on breathing assistance equipment.
  - btilly 7y ago
    I can't find the source I saw it in, but the idea is this. If you cough, large droplets coat the inside of the cloth, and then are forced through the weave of the cloth and come out as small droplets. The smaller the droplet, the better it hangs out in the air.
- amiga_500 7y ago
  > Just issues about who is the highest priority to get them when they are in short supply. The root cause is offshoring safety critical manufacturing: https://www.wired.com/story/decades-offshoring-led-mask-shortage-pandemic/ https://www.wired.com/story/decades-offshoring-led-mask-shor...
- Ensorceled 7y ago
  Who is debating this? I haven't seen a reliable "con" side of this debate, they are all weird "people will take less care", "cloth masks are not as good as N95", "people will wear them poorly and the mask won't be as effective". These are all "perfect is the enemy of good" fallacies, not "debate". Also, how does a bad mask increase aerosol? That makes no sense.
  - btilly 7y ago
    See http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentar... for a reliable "con" side of the debate. Note in particular that cloth masks were tried and failed during the Spanish flu epidemic.
rocha 7y ago
My understanding is that the main transmission medium is respiratory droplets.

marcinzm 7y ago

The perfect is the enemy of the good. These measures aren't about stopping the spread but slowing it down. An N95 mask (if you can get one) will keep you from getting infected and a surgical mask will keep others from getting infected by you. Temperature checks won't catch everyone but will catch some percentage of sick people.

erik 7y ago
N95 masks need to go to hospitals first. They don't really make sense for the general public to be wearing. They are difficult to fit properly, and not comfortable for continuous wear. They are believed to be primarily needed when dealing with patients on oxygen / ventilators / etc. Surgical masks do make sense for the general public. They are much easier to wear, and they still offer a good amount of filtration for the wearer. Plus they have the benefit you mentioned of preventing the wearer from infecting others. Where surgical masks aren't available, cloth masks still appear to offer some benefit. And there are designs that include a pocket for paper filters.

lacker 7y ago

Unfortunately, it’s becoming more clear that the government-science bodies like the CDC and the WHO have been spreading inaccurate information.

twomoretime 7y ago
What's clear is that the entire system has degenerated as the competence of the average person has been eroded over the last few decades. Failures across the board. Federal government, state government, local government, hospitals, insurance companies - no one in positions of authority saw this coming in January? No one with clout or power had the foresight to stockpile masks or other PPE, just in case? Why isn't a national emergency stockpile being maintained when we've seen a dozen potential global pandemics in the last decade alone? Apparently even officials aren't immune to senseless groupthink.
- macintux 7y ago
  I can't believe the U.S. Navy didn't implement a ban on shore leave, or allowing anyone new onto their ships, 6-8 weeks ago. Incredible incompetence.
- krapp 7y ago
  >Failures across the board. Federal government, local government, hospitals, insurance companies - no one in positions of authority saw this coming in January? People did see it coming. The administration ignored early warnings about the virus and publicly downplayed the severity of the issue in order to preserve the stock market and Trump's poll numbers in an election year. This after dismantling much of the infrastructure and firing the personnel needed to respond to this issue in order to cut costs.
  - twomoretime 7y ago
    This failure goes far deeper than Trump. There are so many people in so many positions of authority who could have acted - administrators allocating funds for emergency stockpiles, both private and public. Police, fire, everyone was sitting with their ass up their thumb waiting for what, big brother government to tell them to do something? The administration ignored early warnings about the virus and publicly downplayed the severity of the issue in order to preserve the stock market and Trump's poll numbers in an election year. This after dismantling much of the infrastructure and firing the personnel needed to respond to this issue in order to cut costs. This is nonsense, if you presume the administration knew what was coming then they would have known that this would last up until election season, as it likely will. Unless you're implying that they waited deliberately for it to get worse so they could "fix" it. But you'd never prove something like that. In any case that still doesn't excuse the other tens of thousands of people for individually and collectively failing to act. I started stockpiling mid January.

ravenstine 7y ago

Temperature checks don't seem to work particularly well if enough people carry the virus without symptoms, but if I'm to believe that masks don't impede the movement of sneeze droplets, then I'm the King of Finland.

umanwizard 7y ago
The point of temperature checks, or any mitigation measure, is not to reduce spread to 0, but to decrease it. Why don’t you think temperature checks work? Are you aware that even stopping 1/3 of transmissions would have a massive effect on the final outcome?

TylerE 7y ago

Given how infectious it is, even if these measures only reduce transmission by 10% that is very useful

macspoofing 7y ago

I'm not sure if you're facetious or not, but that's not what I've read. Neither of those is foolproof for detecting/preventing coronavirus infections, but they are better than nothing.

chvid 7y ago
Facetious. I think our politicians should have started with stuff like this rather going full on North Korea.

DasIch 7y ago

Mask do not protect the person wearing the mask (unless you talk about the kind of masks used as PPE for medical professionals). They do protect other people from the person wearing the mask spreading the virus. The consequence is that for masks to work at scale a large number of people need to wear them.

xkapastel 7y ago
Any barrier in front of your mouth and nose will protect you from droplets[0], as well as protecting other people from your own droplets. [0]: https://medium.com/@Cancerwarrior/covid-19-why-we-should-all-wear-masks-there-is-new-scientific-rationale-280e08ceee71 https://medium.com/@Cancerwarrior/covid-19-why-we-should-all...
adrr 7y ago
CDC says that to the public yet in their information to doctors and nurses says a bandanna or scarf can substitute for an N95 mask but with less effectiveness.
umanwizard 7y ago
> Mask do not protect the person wearing the mask (unless you talk about the kind of masks used as PPE for medical professionals). Please link to research that backs up your claim.

umanwizard 7y ago

Please link research.