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Amazon begins temperature checks and will provide surgical masks at warehouses

265 points by ajaviaad 7y ago

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
reaperducer 7y ago
For those interested in reading the actual journalism, not a blog re-writing someone else's work: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-amazon-com-masks-e/exclusive-amazon-to-deploy-masks-and-temperature-checks-for-workers-by-next-week-idUSKBN21K1Y6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-amazon... The HN link should probably be changed.
- Alex3917 7y ago
  For investigative journalism that makes sense. But for press release type content, if anything it's probably more ethical to link to the blogspam version than the original content. Otherwise you're just financially rewarding the "journalists" who only publish positive things about Bezos, the whitehouse, video games, or whatever, and economically punishing the folks we need to hold them accountable.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- Angostura 7y ago
  The link should be changed anyway - that cookie control thing is the worst ever, offering no control.
  - bdcravens 7y ago
    Perhaps, but given the number of articles on HN that are completely inaccessible due to being paywalled, that makes for a low bar of acceptance.
    - tomhoward 7y ago
      Inaccessible links aren't allowed on HN according to the FAQs [1]. Paywalled articles are only allowed if there is a known, easily-accessible workaround, and someone usually posts this in the comments. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
  - jwr 7y ago
    The one at Reuters isn't that much better. If you refuse, Reuters will immediately forget your "Managed Consent" and slam you in the face again on your next visit. I suspect they have no problem remembering your consent forever, it's just refusal that gets immediately forgotten.
    - tastyfreeze 7y ago
      If you reject their use of cookies how are they supposed to remember your rejection the next time you visit?
      - mattigames 7y ago
        If the law doesn't make a single exception so the webpage can store a boolean value into a cookie to know this user doesn't want to be bothered with any _other_ cookies the law is wrong.
        DevKoala 7y ago
        Any single exception can be a privacy attack surface. The law is correct.
        stuaxo 7y ago
        It does make exception for cookies used to make the site function.
    - CamperBob2 7y ago
      No offense, but are you sure you grok the whole 'cookie' concept?
  - snissn 7y ago
    Techcrunch is stealing my back button too
- dang 7y ago
  Ok, we've changed to that from https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/02/amazon-begins-running-temperature-checks-and-will-provide-surgical-masks-at-warehouses/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/02/amazon-begins-running-temp....
DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
I wish we knew more about how much the virus is spread by asymptomatic workers in those settings. Otherwise it seems like closing the barn door after the horses have fled. EDIT FOR CLARITY: I'm referring to the conditions specific to these Amazon fulfillment centers. Not only specific to the screening regime that Amazon is using, but also to the airflow patterns, specific surface materials, cleaning schedule, etc. Last I checked, it was generally accepted that covid19 can be spread while people are still asymptomatic, even if they practice 2-meter spacing and are wearing masks. Because even with those measures in place, persons can still contaminate their hands with fluids mucus / saliva / tears, and then go on to touch objects or surface that will subsequently be touched by others. Therefore, while prohibiting employees with fevers or other signs of covid19 infection are undoubtedly a good idea, there's still some risk of person-to-person transmission even with those who pass that screening. It's the probability of that kind of transmission that interests me. Because if it's non-zero, there are a few questions worth asking: - Should Amazon take additional measures to prevent person-to-person transmission? E.g., run most products through an anti-microbial UV lamp? Tweak their AI camera monitors to also look for people touching their faces? - If that can compare the transmission probabilities of (a) the employees who pass that screening system vs. (b) those who would not, and the probabilities are very close, is the world better off by allowing people in group (b) to continue working?
- hirundo 7y ago
  Aerosols. Masks are an efficient and low cost intervention for limiting such transmissions. Here's a review of 67 randomised controlled studies concluding that. https://www.cochrane.org/CD006207/ARI_physical-interventions-to-interrupt-or-reduce-the-spread-of-respiratory-viruses https://www.cochrane.org/CD006207/ARI_physical-interventions... Is it ok to close the barn door now?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
ceejayoz 7y ago
Our local grocery store chain (Wegmans) finally let workers wear masks last night, as well.
- ssully 7y ago
  The Trader Joe's near me took the most serious steps so far. They are limiting to 30 people in the store at a time and setup 'lanes' six feet apart for carts to lineup for checkout. When you checkout, they take the cart and have you stand back while they ring up and bag your stuff. When it's time to pay they back up from the register and let you pay and take your own receipt. I say these are the most serious steps because the other grocery stores near me haven't changed much of anything last time I went to them. It was a little weird at first, but I am willing to go through whatever hoops to make the grocery workers comfortable.
  - andrewSC 7y ago
    How does the process described help prevent the issue of an infected person placing grocery items in the cart while shopping, only to have the cashier touch them at a later point in time?
    - ssully 7y ago
      It doesn't, but it helps keep people separated. I did notice each cashier had their own bottle of hand sanitizer, so that could help if they used it after each transaction. Personally, I would still want gloves and a surgical mask if I were them.
      - andrewSC 7y ago
        Ahh gotcha, I see now. I definitely think something is better than nothing in this context and would help slow and/or reduce transmission in general! Just wasn't sure if I had missed something or what have you.
    - dangus 7y ago
      I'm not an expert, but, if in the described scenario the cashier doesn't touch their face and they frequently wash hands/change gloves, I don't think this method of transmission is as effective as close proximity transmission via the humid air coming in and out of your nose and mouth.
rnernento 7y ago
How are they so late on this? I thought Bezos was going to be all over figuring out how to keep people working safely, that's going to be a huge factor in the success or failure of businesses going forward.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
  It is funny you mention it. My SO works at a doctor's office and they only started that kind of monitoring two days ago. Best practices are only starting to emerge so I am willing to give Amazon some slack here. It is still late.
- Eridrus 7y ago
  The temperature checks and reviewing video are new, but they've been saying they will provide masks for a while but have been running into shortages actually procuring them. If we assume most transmission is asymptomatic, this is largely a PR move that buys Amazon some time, but doesn't change much, except maybe the price they're willing to pay for masks.
  - catach 7y ago
    Even if we assume most transmission is asymptomatic there's still a ton of value in cutting down symptomatic transmission.
- kevingadd 7y ago
  They're late because employee protests forced their hand.
- vharuck 7y ago
  Private companies are reluctant to instate costly efforts on their own. They might be worried competitors will get an edge by not doing the same. In a crisis, people look to the leadership above them. These companies are looking to government and public health officials for guidance and even official decrees. But those people are scrambling to make up for the month of prep work we lost. This pandemic has revealed our lack of planning for disasters. We're just now settling on the big decisions like stay-at-home orders and financial relief. Hopefully we'll get to the secondary decisions (like recommended protocols for businesses still open) while they could still do some good.
oski 7y ago
This response from Amazon is better than nothing, but given that recent figures show that up to 25% of people may be asymptomatic, might these temperature checks give people a false sense of security? They should have any employee with _any_ symptoms stay home and self-quarantine for longer than 3 days. They should really focus on getting face masks for employees faster by using nonmedical fabric masks, which can help prevent asymptomatic transmission by blocking respiratory droplets from spreading. The article says the surgical masks won't arrive until next week. And they should really be using some alternative fabric mask, rather than surgical masks which should go to healthcare workers. Each day that interventions are delayed makes a huge difference. More thoughts at https://shouldiwearafacemask.com https://shouldiwearafacemask.com (Edited to remove suggestion to close until they get masks with a compromise to use nonmedical fabric masks.)
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  > They should shut down until they can get face masks for all employees and make them mandatory. The article says they won't arrive until next week. And they should really be using some alternative fabric mask, rather than surgical masks which should go to healthcare workers. And all the people ordering from Amazon? I would assume that on the whole, Amazon is better than every member of the public physically going out and shopping at a store.
  - datingscientist 7y ago
    I thought a fair amount of the contact work was done by robots, at least for the inner packaged items. The virus apparently doesn't do great on cardboard; you've got a day or so of transit time for it to wear down...
    - SloopJon 7y ago
      Amazon has sponsored a picking challenge for a few years now, but I'm not aware of this level of automation being deployed in production. The last I saw, a Kiva robot would bring a shelf of items to a human picker, who transferred an item from a bin to a box.
brentm 7y ago
They really should have been doing temperature checks a month ago. Amazon is pretty critical infrastructure right now. Many people would be up a creek if Amazon had to shut down.
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  I can see a parallel universe where the military shows up and "fortifies" critical supply chain locations like this, and they're the ones with the temperature checks and gate security. Not sure we're there yet. But I keep thinking about how, "given the lag time in this disease, appropriate response should look like an overreaction."
  - catach 7y ago
    > But I keep thinking about how, "given the lag time in this disease, appropriate response should look like an overreaction." That's a great point. The impact of the virus is going to be much worse than it could have been because it's behavior exploits some of our cognitive biases.
- bobloblaw45 7y ago
  At a manufacturing plant I'm working at the temperature checks have been in place for awhile now. Seems weird it took Amazon this long since I'm sure they have everything they need to do it in their warehouses. Just buy it from the seller and rip them open and start taking temperatures.
envy2 7y ago
How is this just starting? Here in Singapore, employers have been required to do twice-daily temperature checks for months. This is the lowest of low-hanging fruit.
- macspoofing 7y ago
  >How is this just starting? I wonder if this is because of shortages of masks.
  - btilly 7y ago
    Thermal guns are not affected by shortages of masks. That said, we probably don't have sufficient supplies of those on hand either.
    - macspoofing 7y ago
      >Thermal guns are not affected by shortages of masks. Well ... they are certainly correlated.
  - dillonmckay 7y ago
    There is no shortage of masks, just issues of procurement. Masks are being sold to overseas buyers, so I assume they can resell them back to US entities at enormous markups.
- rumanator 7y ago
  > How is this just starting? This question bears repeating. A lot. I'm baffled.
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    Here's my pet theory: It's mostly about preserving companies' brands and not associating them with the crisis. Someone wearing a face mask is a very visible (literally in-your-face) expression of the pandemic. Companies don't want this associated with their various brands. Especially a service worker working directly with the public. [Company] fears that if the public starts seeing [Company] workers wearing masks, they'll associate [Company] with sickness. Remember the thread yesterday about hospitals. The health care workers that were willing to post anonymously suggested that their lack of protective gear was more about bad PR and image than a lack of supplies. This is just like companies not wanting their ads to show up alongside porn or hate videos. They're trying to avoid a bad brand association. No company wants the public to see face masks all over their brand.
claudeganon 7y ago
...because their workers are striking across the country: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolineodonovan/amazon-employees-coronavirus-walkout https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolineodonovan/amazon... Labor organizing - it works!
chvid 7y ago
I thought here in the west that it was well-established that temperature checks and mask do not work against the corona?!
- amiga_500 7y ago
  I have a hard time believing that everyone wearing a mask when interacting doesn't inhibit a disease transmitted via vapor in our breath.
  - btilly 7y ago
    There is actually a debate about this. A bad mask (eg a bandanna) means less virus gets out, but it is more likely to get out in the form of a fine aerosol that hangs in the air for hours. On the opposite end it is a reminder not to touch your face (prevents transmission from your hands) but won't stop you from breathing in an aerosol. Likely still a net win, but kinda a hard thing to do good research on. There is no doubt that masks that are designed to block things the size of viruses help. Just issues about who is the highest priority to get them when they are in short supply.
    - xkapastel 7y ago
      Aerosol is not any more likely to get out than not wearing anything. And a bad mask prevents droplets from getting in as well.
      - btilly 7y ago
        I can't find the source on which I based my aerosol comment on, but the idea was that a large droplet which would have fallen gets trapped by the cloth. When it gets through, it comes out as a fine mist. Given that I can't find it repeated, I suspect that it may be misinformation on my part.
    - erik 7y ago
      > A bad mask (eg a bandanna) means less virus gets out, but it is more likely to get out in the form of a fine aerosol Do you have a reference for this? I've only ever heard of aerosolization primarily being a concern around people on breathing assistance equipment.
Causality1 7y ago
I'm sure there's a German word for "a company announcing a positive step that hurts its reputation because everybody thought they were doing it already". Closely related to the "software feature announcement that everyone can't believe it didn't have already".
blorenz 7y ago
Do not wear your face mask like the gentleman front and center in the photo! Not covering your nose has become the source of many memes but it still widespread. Simply having the fabric on your face does not grant you a protective aura.
- nitrogen 7y ago
  Sadly even professionals like dentists do this wrong sometimes.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  If you don’t have an N95 mask, it isn’t ultra important. I figure the masks that aren’t stopping virus anyhow are at least reminders to not touch your face / be careful.
  - joshstrange 7y ago
    > I figure the masks that aren’t stopping virus anyhow I don't agree with that statement. Even if it only blocks 1/2 of the viral load you are better off. Best case: you don't get any of the virus, worst case: you get a smaller dose which helps your odds.
    - aledalgrande 7y ago
      Yeah from my limited knowledge the actual amount of virus you get injected with is very important, it's not a binary caught/not caught thing.
      - joshstrange 7y ago
        Agreed, from my research it's all about giving your body time to develop antibodies and due to how the virus replicates the smaller you start the more time you have to fight it before it really starts to take a toll on your body.
- rpedela 7y ago
typest 7y ago
> Amazon has detailed someone measures its taking Does techcrunch not have copy editors? Two errors in the first six words of this article. I was an editor at my high school newspaper and we would not have published this.
mayneack 7y ago
It looks like they're being sent home, not given sick leave. Amazon can absolutely afford paid sick leave for people they deem unfit for work.
charlesju 7y ago
1. Everyone should wear surgical masks 2. Temperature checks everywhere 3. Testing needs to be ubiquitous and fast 4. Backtrace every outbreak and quarantine everyone that was in contact
- joshstrange 7y ago
  This, 100% this. #1 is so easy that it hurts be that this isn't headline news. The CDC fucked up big time telling people masks don't help. Even if you don't have access to a surgical mask there are resources out there for how to make cloth masks or even use a T-shirt as a mask. This should be table stakes. Yes, you are going to get weird looks (I already have) but if it encourages even 1 more person to feel comfortable then it's worth it to me. #2-4 are largely out of our hands (as individual citizens) but #1 we can all start doing TODAY. inb4: I'm not interested in arguments about "false senses of security" (we already have people thinking that without masks) or that "they won't fit the mask correctly"/"wear it incorrectly" (you are letting good be the enemy of great and we just don't have time to get to "great"). Please reduce your contacts and if you have to go out wear a mask!
- oski 7y ago
  I agree in general with one change: s/surgical masks/nonmedical fabric or homemade masks/ At this point there is a shortage of PPE for healthcare workers, so the general public should wear nonmedical fabric masks or homemade masks.
  - joshstrange 7y ago
    I can agree wholeheartedly with this. We need our best PPE on the frontlines. That said everyone should be covering their face when they go anywhere they could have contact with other humans (grocery, pharmacy, etc).
nikolay 7y ago
Both Amazon, Facebook, and eBay should be sued for enabling price gouging. I report at least 20 ads a day on Facebook for overpriced face masks, there are still tons of masks and respisrators on eBay and other overpriced necessesities such as toilet paper, paper towels, and hand sanitizers. Amazon also allows a lot of crooks to sell stuff and never deliver it and now they blocked a lot of non-medical grade stuff for "governments and hospitals" like 2 oz sanitier gels and others. In addition, Amazon also now has all out of stock items as "Temporarily out of stock.", i.e. lying to you and tricking you to place an order and wait for it to be delivered... one day!
dillonmckay 7y ago
Lagging indicators?
barbegal 7y ago
What is the accuracy of non-contact infrared thermometers sensors in detecting high body temperatures? If you use an off the shelf cheap non-contact thermometer then your will read ~32C when you measure your forehead temperature. As far as I can tell most health non-contact thermometers work by measuring the ambient temperature and using this to calibrate the measured forehead temperature. But there seem to be many factors in play: if a worker has just come from another colder or hotter environment, the size of a workers head, ambient air speed, hair covering, where the operator aims the device... In the best study [1] I have seen using expensive ($25,000) equipment, the sensitivity vs specificity is too low [2] to suggest that they are useful outside of environments that can tolerate high levels of false positives. To catch 90% of the people with Covid-19 you will inadvertently turn away at least 10% of your workforce as false positives. I would be interested in seeing studies from actual workplace screenings in terms of how many workers are turned away and how many feverish workers are actually detected. [1]https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/16/11/10-0703_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/16/11/10-0703_article [2]https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/16/11/10-0703-f1 https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/16/11/10-0703-f1
- astrea 7y ago
  For the sake of safety, I think it is better to err on the side of false-positives in this situation.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
oski 7y ago
TL;DR: starting next week, Amazon will start: 1) taking temperatures of employees, fever >100.4°F to be sent home for min 3 days 2) giving surgical masks to employees once it receives shipments of orders of “millions” 3) using machine learning-powered video software to monitor social distancing (Shameless plug for a little site I made to help spread the word that we need #masks4all: https://shouldiwearafacemask.com https://shouldiwearafacemask.com)
- pacala 7y ago
  > 3) using machine learning-powered video software to monitor social distancing Ughhh... Never let a good crisis go to waste. How about we ban machine learning systems to monitor people's movement at scale?
  - xyzzy_plugh 7y ago
    This is Amazon's entire warehouse solution, in some sense. Pickers are "optimized" by software. It's probably relatively trivial to teach the system to keep people further apart, at the cost of optimal routing. They're not monitoring the public, they're monitoring their supply chain system.
    - pacala 7y ago
      They are monitoring human movement, at scale. This is dangerous. * video feeds + machine learning system for monitoring warehouse workers. * video feeds + machine learning system for monitoring shoppers. * video for monitoring entire neighborhoods. Hmmm, I wonder what their business plan might be.
- xenospn 7y ago
  Would they have implemented any of these steps without collective action taken by employees and the threat of strike?
  - claudeganon 7y ago
    No, absolutely not and this is a trend in the media reporting on these actions. Companies are credited for implementing safety measures that were first demanded by workers organizing, often without any reference to that organizing.
axaxs 7y ago
How are temperature checks useful? I thought I'd read that people are asymptomatic for up to 2 weeks, during which time they can spread it. If that is the case, temperature checks do absolutely nothing to stop the spread here...
- sixothree 7y ago
  It has been suggested people who are symptomatic are much more infectious.
- joshstrange 7y ago
  Masks will help with the asymptomatic people and temperature checks will help catch the ones who are symptomatic. Don't let good be the enemy of great. Every bit helps.
- massysett 7y ago
  I am seeing this logic a lot: “this preventive measure isn’t 100 percent perfect, therefore it’s completely useless.” Even measures that are only partially effective can make a substantial difference, especially at a population level.
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    I get the feeling a lot of HN commenters would recommend against condoms because they're only 98% effective, and only if used correctly, therefore completely useless.
    - AdrianB1 7y ago
      No, they would not recommend the day-after pill as one of the core measures. Taking the temperature means you find out something is wrong a week late.
  - axaxs 7y ago
    Because in this case, the measure is 0 percent effective. People work together every day. This virus spreads super easily. Telling people to stay home once they show symptoms does absolutely nothing to stop communal spread. If it did we wouldn't have these social distancing rules, and the entire country wouldn't be shut down.
paul7986 7y ago
Correct me if Im wrong, but even with temperature checks which you may not have you are still potentially a carrier? If so, I hope we can find a better detection system if a vaccine isn't created ASAP.
- umanwizard 7y ago
  The point of mitigation measures is to reduce the spread, not to slow it to zero, which is impossible.
oski 7y ago
Everyone who is still working to provide essential services should be wearing masks. There is a major shortage of PPE, so non-healthcare workers should be wearing nonmedical fabric masks or homemade masks. https://shouldiwearafacemask.com https://shouldiwearafacemask.com for a full explanation with the science.
dghughes 7y ago
At a question and answer session in my region (we have them daily) one question was about masks. The doctor who answered said most (non medical) people don't know how to wear them properly. Another problem is taking the mask off without infecting yourself.
0x8BADF00D 7y ago
Imagine if we had a healthcare system like Singapore. Not like the one we currently have now, where the government interferes in the free market and as a result the cost goes through the roof.
soperj 7y ago
Love how Amazon staff will get surgical masks while doctors in America have to re-use theirs and use them for a whole shift.
stevespang 7y ago
Temp checks are USELESS. We are dealing with a stealth virus which is asymptomatic the first 5 days on average, these are the "spreaders".
legohead 7y ago
I'm also curious about how they are dealing with the actual sent packages. From past videos I've seen, workers place the objects in boxes. So if a worker is sick, wouldn't they be sending contaminated items out? Is amazon doing anything about that in particular?
AndrewKemendo 7y ago
This sentence stuck out to me: "The company will also use machine-learning software to monitor building cameras and determine whether employees are staying at safe distances during their shifts, or whether they are often huddled too close together" I can see that working in tandem with some kind of alarm or alert sounding when workers are too close together. The second order effect, would be some kind of Pavlovian response in Amazon warehouse workers even beyond this physical distancing period. That's the kind of stuff you used to read in sci-fi novels.
- SamuelAdams 7y ago
  In the same vein, it would be kind of cool if there was a wristband / necklace kit that vibrated aggressively if they were placed within close proximity. For example, most people touch their face between 2-3,000 times a day. The current CDC recommendation is to not touch your face, but people do this unconsciously. So make two wrist bands, wear one on each wrist. Then also make a necklace of some kind, and if a wristband is brought within 1-2 inches of the necklace, vibrate the wristband somehow. This will alert the person that they are touching their face and after enough use, they will hopefully do it less.
  - Klathmon 7y ago
    I wonder if this could be done with a smartwatch alone. Touching your face means that your hand is at a specific angle, and probably has some accelerometer and gyroscope readings that can be identified as "touching your face" vs "raising your hand" or lifting things or whatever else. Dedicated hardware would be nice, but it's unlikely to be useful in time for the current pandemic. But an app that was like 90% accurate that could be released right now (or within a week or 2) might be able to make a difference.
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
  We perfected behavior tracking on the web. Now it’s time to try it out in real life.
- oski 7y ago
  This is the premise of the Amazon Go stores, walk-in, grab-stuff, walk-out. No checkout. All ML based video surveillance. They probably use the same underlying technology.
AdrianB1 7y ago
I cannot find accurate information, but the duration of the illness for the people that do recover from mild cases is around 12-15 days; sending people home if they have fever for "minimum 3 days" does not make sense, you send them home until they have no fever for at least 3 days, so they are clean.
andy_ppp 7y ago
They seem to have randomly stopped delivering some items for 3 weeks even though they have them in stock. It's very inconsistent; I need a new inner tube which will be delivered tomorrow but while I'm at it I could do with new tires too, but those don't turn up until 30th April even though they are in stock. Could they not just deliver the items all at the same time?
sjg007 7y ago
I just hope Amazon has bulked ordered masks of sufficient quality that we ourselves can buy some from Amazon.com that are sold by Amazon. We have to move to a mask culture until we get a vaccine.

265 points by ajaviaad 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

For those interested in reading the actual journalism, not a blog re-writing someone else's work: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-amazon-com-masks-e/exclusive-amazon-to-deploy-masks-and-temperature-checks-for-workers-by-next-week-idUSKBN21K1Y6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-amazon... The HN link should probably be changed.

Alex3917 7y ago
For investigative journalism that makes sense. But for press release type content, if anything it's probably more ethical to link to the blogspam version than the original content. Otherwise you're just financially rewarding the "journalists" who only publish positive things about Bezos, the whitehouse, video games, or whatever, and economically punishing the folks we need to hold them accountable.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
Angostura 7y ago
The link should be changed anyway - that cookie control thing is the worst ever, offering no control.
- bdcravens 7y ago
  Perhaps, but given the number of articles on HN that are completely inaccessible due to being paywalled, that makes for a low bar of acceptance.
  - tomhoward 7y ago
    Inaccessible links aren't allowed on HN according to the FAQs [1]. Paywalled articles are only allowed if there is a known, easily-accessible workaround, and someone usually posts this in the comments. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
- jwr 7y ago
  The one at Reuters isn't that much better. If you refuse, Reuters will immediately forget your "Managed Consent" and slam you in the face again on your next visit. I suspect they have no problem remembering your consent forever, it's just refusal that gets immediately forgotten.
  - tastyfreeze 7y ago
    If you reject their use of cookies how are they supposed to remember your rejection the next time you visit?
    - mattigames 7y ago
      If the law doesn't make a single exception so the webpage can store a boolean value into a cookie to know this user doesn't want to be bothered with any _other_ cookies the law is wrong.
      - DevKoala 7y ago
        Any single exception can be a privacy attack surface. The law is correct.
      - stuaxo 7y ago
        It does make exception for cookies used to make the site function.
  - CamperBob2 7y ago
    No offense, but are you sure you grok the whole 'cookie' concept?
- snissn 7y ago
  Techcrunch is stealing my back button too
dang 7y ago
Ok, we've changed to that from https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/02/amazon-begins-running-temperature-checks-and-will-provide-surgical-masks-at-warehouses/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/02/amazon-begins-running-temp....

DoofusOfDeath 7y ago

I wish we knew more about how much the virus is spread by asymptomatic workers in those settings. Otherwise it seems like closing the barn door after the horses have fled. EDIT FOR CLARITY: I'm referring to the conditions specific to these Amazon fulfillment centers. Not only specific to the screening regime that Amazon is using, but also to the airflow patterns, specific surface materials, cleaning schedule, etc. Last I checked, it was generally accepted that covid19 can be spread while people are still asymptomatic, even if they practice 2-meter spacing and are wearing masks. Because even with those measures in place, persons can still contaminate their hands with fluids mucus / saliva / tears, and then go on to touch objects or surface that will subsequently be touched by others. Therefore, while prohibiting employees with fevers or other signs of covid19 infection are undoubtedly a good idea, there's still some risk of person-to-person transmission even with those who pass that screening. It's the probability of that kind of transmission that interests me. Because if it's non-zero, there are a few questions worth asking: - Should Amazon take additional measures to prevent person-to-person transmission? E.g., run most products through an anti-microbial UV lamp? Tweak their AI camera monitors to also look for people touching their faces? - If that can compare the transmission probabilities of (a) the employees who pass that screening system vs. (b) those who would not, and the probabilities are very close, is the world better off by allowing people in group (b) to continue working?

hirundo 7y ago
Aerosols. Masks are an efficient and low cost intervention for limiting such transmissions. Here's a review of 67 randomised controlled studies concluding that. https://www.cochrane.org/CD006207/ARI_physical-interventions-to-interrupt-or-reduce-the-spread-of-respiratory-viruses https://www.cochrane.org/CD006207/ARI_physical-interventions... Is it ok to close the barn door now?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

ceejayoz 7y ago

Our local grocery store chain (Wegmans) finally let workers wear masks last night, as well.

ssully 7y ago
The Trader Joe's near me took the most serious steps so far. They are limiting to 30 people in the store at a time and setup 'lanes' six feet apart for carts to lineup for checkout. When you checkout, they take the cart and have you stand back while they ring up and bag your stuff. When it's time to pay they back up from the register and let you pay and take your own receipt. I say these are the most serious steps because the other grocery stores near me haven't changed much of anything last time I went to them. It was a little weird at first, but I am willing to go through whatever hoops to make the grocery workers comfortable.
- andrewSC 7y ago
  How does the process described help prevent the issue of an infected person placing grocery items in the cart while shopping, only to have the cashier touch them at a later point in time?
  - ssully 7y ago
    It doesn't, but it helps keep people separated. I did notice each cashier had their own bottle of hand sanitizer, so that could help if they used it after each transaction. Personally, I would still want gloves and a surgical mask if I were them.
    - andrewSC 7y ago
      Ahh gotcha, I see now. I definitely think something is better than nothing in this context and would help slow and/or reduce transmission in general! Just wasn't sure if I had missed something or what have you.
  - dangus 7y ago
    I'm not an expert, but, if in the described scenario the cashier doesn't touch their face and they frequently wash hands/change gloves, I don't think this method of transmission is as effective as close proximity transmission via the humid air coming in and out of your nose and mouth.

rnernento 7y ago

How are they so late on this? I thought Bezos was going to be all over figuring out how to keep people working safely, that's going to be a huge factor in the success or failure of businesses going forward.

A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
It is funny you mention it. My SO works at a doctor's office and they only started that kind of monitoring two days ago. Best practices are only starting to emerge so I am willing to give Amazon some slack here. It is still late.
Eridrus 7y ago
The temperature checks and reviewing video are new, but they've been saying they will provide masks for a while but have been running into shortages actually procuring them. If we assume most transmission is asymptomatic, this is largely a PR move that buys Amazon some time, but doesn't change much, except maybe the price they're willing to pay for masks.
- catach 7y ago
  Even if we assume most transmission is asymptomatic there's still a ton of value in cutting down symptomatic transmission.
kevingadd 7y ago
They're late because employee protests forced their hand.
vharuck 7y ago
Private companies are reluctant to instate costly efforts on their own. They might be worried competitors will get an edge by not doing the same. In a crisis, people look to the leadership above them. These companies are looking to government and public health officials for guidance and even official decrees. But those people are scrambling to make up for the month of prep work we lost. This pandemic has revealed our lack of planning for disasters. We're just now settling on the big decisions like stay-at-home orders and financial relief. Hopefully we'll get to the secondary decisions (like recommended protocols for businesses still open) while they could still do some good.

oski 7y ago

This response from Amazon is better than nothing, but given that recent figures show that up to 25% of people may be asymptomatic, might these temperature checks give people a false sense of security? They should have any employee with _any_ symptoms stay home and self-quarantine for longer than 3 days. They should really focus on getting face masks for employees faster by using nonmedical fabric masks, which can help prevent asymptomatic transmission by blocking respiratory droplets from spreading. The article says the surgical masks won't arrive until next week. And they should really be using some alternative fabric mask, rather than surgical masks which should go to healthcare workers. Each day that interventions are delayed makes a huge difference. More thoughts at https://shouldiwearafacemask.com https://shouldiwearafacemask.com (Edited to remove suggestion to close until they get masks with a compromise to use nonmedical fabric masks.)

Wowfunhappy 7y ago
> They should shut down until they can get face masks for all employees and make them mandatory. The article says they won't arrive until next week. And they should really be using some alternative fabric mask, rather than surgical masks which should go to healthcare workers. And all the people ordering from Amazon? I would assume that on the whole, Amazon is better than every member of the public physically going out and shopping at a store.
- datingscientist 7y ago
  I thought a fair amount of the contact work was done by robots, at least for the inner packaged items. The virus apparently doesn't do great on cardboard; you've got a day or so of transit time for it to wear down...
  - SloopJon 7y ago
    Amazon has sponsored a picking challenge for a few years now, but I'm not aware of this level of automation being deployed in production. The last I saw, a Kiva robot would bring a shelf of items to a human picker, who transferred an item from a bin to a box.

brentm 7y ago

They really should have been doing temperature checks a month ago. Amazon is pretty critical infrastructure right now. Many people would be up a creek if Amazon had to shut down.

Waterluvian 7y ago
I can see a parallel universe where the military shows up and "fortifies" critical supply chain locations like this, and they're the ones with the temperature checks and gate security. Not sure we're there yet. But I keep thinking about how, "given the lag time in this disease, appropriate response should look like an overreaction."
- catach 7y ago
  > But I keep thinking about how, "given the lag time in this disease, appropriate response should look like an overreaction." That's a great point. The impact of the virus is going to be much worse than it could have been because it's behavior exploits some of our cognitive biases.
bobloblaw45 7y ago
At a manufacturing plant I'm working at the temperature checks have been in place for awhile now. Seems weird it took Amazon this long since I'm sure they have everything they need to do it in their warehouses. Just buy it from the seller and rip them open and start taking temperatures.

envy2 7y ago

How is this just starting? Here in Singapore, employers have been required to do twice-daily temperature checks for months. This is the lowest of low-hanging fruit.

macspoofing 7y ago
>How is this just starting? I wonder if this is because of shortages of masks.
- btilly 7y ago
  Thermal guns are not affected by shortages of masks. That said, we probably don't have sufficient supplies of those on hand either.
  - macspoofing 7y ago
    >Thermal guns are not affected by shortages of masks. Well ... they are certainly correlated.
- dillonmckay 7y ago
  There is no shortage of masks, just issues of procurement. Masks are being sold to overseas buyers, so I assume they can resell them back to US entities at enormous markups.
rumanator 7y ago
> How is this just starting? This question bears repeating. A lot. I'm baffled.
- ryandrake 7y ago
  Here's my pet theory: It's mostly about preserving companies' brands and not associating them with the crisis. Someone wearing a face mask is a very visible (literally in-your-face) expression of the pandemic. Companies don't want this associated with their various brands. Especially a service worker working directly with the public. [Company] fears that if the public starts seeing [Company] workers wearing masks, they'll associate [Company] with sickness. Remember the thread yesterday about hospitals. The health care workers that were willing to post anonymously suggested that their lack of protective gear was more about bad PR and image than a lack of supplies. This is just like companies not wanting their ads to show up alongside porn or hate videos. They're trying to avoid a bad brand association. No company wants the public to see face masks all over their brand.

claudeganon 7y ago

...because their workers are striking across the country: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolineodonovan/amazon-employees-coronavirus-walkout https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolineodonovan/amazon... Labor organizing - it works!

chvid 7y ago

I thought here in the west that it was well-established that temperature checks and mask do not work against the corona?!

amiga_500 7y ago
I have a hard time believing that everyone wearing a mask when interacting doesn't inhibit a disease transmitted via vapor in our breath.
- btilly 7y ago
  There is actually a debate about this. A bad mask (eg a bandanna) means less virus gets out, but it is more likely to get out in the form of a fine aerosol that hangs in the air for hours. On the opposite end it is a reminder not to touch your face (prevents transmission from your hands) but won't stop you from breathing in an aerosol. Likely still a net win, but kinda a hard thing to do good research on. There is no doubt that masks that are designed to block things the size of viruses help. Just issues about who is the highest priority to get them when they are in short supply.
  - xkapastel 7y ago
    Aerosol is not any more likely to get out than not wearing anything. And a bad mask prevents droplets from getting in as well.
    - btilly 7y ago
      I can't find the source on which I based my aerosol comment on, but the idea was that a large droplet which would have fallen gets trapped by the cloth. When it gets through, it comes out as a fine mist. Given that I can't find it repeated, I suspect that it may be misinformation on my part.
  - erik 7y ago
    > A bad mask (eg a bandanna) means less virus gets out, but it is more likely to get out in the form of a fine aerosol Do you have a reference for this? I've only ever heard of aerosolization primarily being a concern around people on breathing assistance equipment.

Causality1 7y ago

I'm sure there's a German word for "a company announcing a positive step that hurts its reputation because everybody thought they were doing it already". Closely related to the "software feature announcement that everyone can't believe it didn't have already".

blorenz 7y ago

Do not wear your face mask like the gentleman front and center in the photo! Not covering your nose has become the source of many memes but it still widespread. Simply having the fabric on your face does not grant you a protective aura.

nitrogen 7y ago
Sadly even professionals like dentists do this wrong sometimes.
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
If you don’t have an N95 mask, it isn’t ultra important. I figure the masks that aren’t stopping virus anyhow are at least reminders to not touch your face / be careful.
- joshstrange 7y ago
  > I figure the masks that aren’t stopping virus anyhow I don't agree with that statement. Even if it only blocks 1/2 of the viral load you are better off. Best case: you don't get any of the virus, worst case: you get a smaller dose which helps your odds.
  - aledalgrande 7y ago
    Yeah from my limited knowledge the actual amount of virus you get injected with is very important, it's not a binary caught/not caught thing.
    - joshstrange 7y ago
      Agreed, from my research it's all about giving your body time to develop antibodies and due to how the virus replicates the smaller you start the more time you have to fight it before it really starts to take a toll on your body.
rpedela 7y ago

typest 7y ago

> Amazon has detailed someone measures its taking Does techcrunch not have copy editors? Two errors in the first six words of this article. I was an editor at my high school newspaper and we would not have published this.

mayneack 7y ago

It looks like they're being sent home, not given sick leave. Amazon can absolutely afford paid sick leave for people they deem unfit for work.

charlesju 7y ago

1. Everyone should wear surgical masks 2. Temperature checks everywhere 3. Testing needs to be ubiquitous and fast 4. Backtrace every outbreak and quarantine everyone that was in contact

joshstrange 7y ago
This, 100% this. #1 is so easy that it hurts be that this isn't headline news. The CDC fucked up big time telling people masks don't help. Even if you don't have access to a surgical mask there are resources out there for how to make cloth masks or even use a T-shirt as a mask. This should be table stakes. Yes, you are going to get weird looks (I already have) but if it encourages even 1 more person to feel comfortable then it's worth it to me. #2-4 are largely out of our hands (as individual citizens) but #1 we can all start doing TODAY. inb4: I'm not interested in arguments about "false senses of security" (we already have people thinking that without masks) or that "they won't fit the mask correctly"/"wear it incorrectly" (you are letting good be the enemy of great and we just don't have time to get to "great"). Please reduce your contacts and if you have to go out wear a mask!
oski 7y ago
I agree in general with one change: s/surgical masks/nonmedical fabric or homemade masks/ At this point there is a shortage of PPE for healthcare workers, so the general public should wear nonmedical fabric masks or homemade masks.
- joshstrange 7y ago
  I can agree wholeheartedly with this. We need our best PPE on the frontlines. That said everyone should be covering their face when they go anywhere they could have contact with other humans (grocery, pharmacy, etc).

nikolay 7y ago

Both Amazon, Facebook, and eBay should be sued for enabling price gouging. I report at least 20 ads a day on Facebook for overpriced face masks, there are still tons of masks and respisrators on eBay and other overpriced necessesities such as toilet paper, paper towels, and hand sanitizers. Amazon also allows a lot of crooks to sell stuff and never deliver it and now they blocked a lot of non-medical grade stuff for "governments and hospitals" like 2 oz sanitier gels and others. In addition, Amazon also now has all out of stock items as "Temporarily out of stock.", i.e. lying to you and tricking you to place an order and wait for it to be delivered... one day!

dillonmckay 7y ago

Lagging indicators?

barbegal 7y ago

What is the accuracy of non-contact infrared thermometers sensors in detecting high body temperatures? If you use an off the shelf cheap non-contact thermometer then your will read ~32C when you measure your forehead temperature. As far as I can tell most health non-contact thermometers work by measuring the ambient temperature and using this to calibrate the measured forehead temperature. But there seem to be many factors in play: if a worker has just come from another colder or hotter environment, the size of a workers head, ambient air speed, hair covering, where the operator aims the device... In the best study [1] I have seen using expensive ($25,000) equipment, the sensitivity vs specificity is too low [2] to suggest that they are useful outside of environments that can tolerate high levels of false positives. To catch 90% of the people with Covid-19 you will inadvertently turn away at least 10% of your workforce as false positives. I would be interested in seeing studies from actual workplace screenings in terms of how many workers are turned away and how many feverish workers are actually detected. [1]https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/16/11/10-0703_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/16/11/10-0703_article [2]https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/16/11/10-0703-f1 https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/16/11/10-0703-f1

astrea 7y ago
For the sake of safety, I think it is better to err on the side of false-positives in this situation.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

oski 7y ago

TL;DR: starting next week, Amazon will start: 1) taking temperatures of employees, fever >100.4°F to be sent home for min 3 days 2) giving surgical masks to employees once it receives shipments of orders of “millions” 3) using machine learning-powered video software to monitor social distancing (Shameless plug for a little site I made to help spread the word that we need #masks4all: https://shouldiwearafacemask.com https://shouldiwearafacemask.com)

pacala 7y ago
> 3) using machine learning-powered video software to monitor social distancing Ughhh... Never let a good crisis go to waste. How about we ban machine learning systems to monitor people's movement at scale?
- xyzzy_plugh 7y ago
  This is Amazon's entire warehouse solution, in some sense. Pickers are "optimized" by software. It's probably relatively trivial to teach the system to keep people further apart, at the cost of optimal routing. They're not monitoring the public, they're monitoring their supply chain system.
  - pacala 7y ago
    They are monitoring human movement, at scale. This is dangerous. * video feeds + machine learning system for monitoring warehouse workers. * video feeds + machine learning system for monitoring shoppers. * video for monitoring entire neighborhoods. Hmmm, I wonder what their business plan might be.
xenospn 7y ago
Would they have implemented any of these steps without collective action taken by employees and the threat of strike?
- claudeganon 7y ago
  No, absolutely not and this is a trend in the media reporting on these actions. Companies are credited for implementing safety measures that were first demanded by workers organizing, often without any reference to that organizing.

axaxs 7y ago

How are temperature checks useful? I thought I'd read that people are asymptomatic for up to 2 weeks, during which time they can spread it. If that is the case, temperature checks do absolutely nothing to stop the spread here...

sixothree 7y ago
It has been suggested people who are symptomatic are much more infectious.
joshstrange 7y ago
Masks will help with the asymptomatic people and temperature checks will help catch the ones who are symptomatic. Don't let good be the enemy of great. Every bit helps.
massysett 7y ago
I am seeing this logic a lot: “this preventive measure isn’t 100 percent perfect, therefore it’s completely useless.” Even measures that are only partially effective can make a substantial difference, especially at a population level.
- ryandrake 7y ago
  I get the feeling a lot of HN commenters would recommend against condoms because they're only 98% effective, and only if used correctly, therefore completely useless.
  - AdrianB1 7y ago
    No, they would not recommend the day-after pill as one of the core measures. Taking the temperature means you find out something is wrong a week late.
- axaxs 7y ago
  Because in this case, the measure is 0 percent effective. People work together every day. This virus spreads super easily. Telling people to stay home once they show symptoms does absolutely nothing to stop communal spread. If it did we wouldn't have these social distancing rules, and the entire country wouldn't be shut down.

paul7986 7y ago

Correct me if Im wrong, but even with temperature checks which you may not have you are still potentially a carrier? If so, I hope we can find a better detection system if a vaccine isn't created ASAP.

umanwizard 7y ago
The point of mitigation measures is to reduce the spread, not to slow it to zero, which is impossible.

oski 7y ago

Everyone who is still working to provide essential services should be wearing masks. There is a major shortage of PPE, so non-healthcare workers should be wearing nonmedical fabric masks or homemade masks. https://shouldiwearafacemask.com https://shouldiwearafacemask.com for a full explanation with the science.

dghughes 7y ago

At a question and answer session in my region (we have them daily) one question was about masks. The doctor who answered said most (non medical) people don't know how to wear them properly. Another problem is taking the mask off without infecting yourself.

0x8BADF00D 7y ago

Imagine if we had a healthcare system like Singapore. Not like the one we currently have now, where the government interferes in the free market and as a result the cost goes through the roof.

soperj 7y ago

Love how Amazon staff will get surgical masks while doctors in America have to re-use theirs and use them for a whole shift.

stevespang 7y ago

Temp checks are USELESS. We are dealing with a stealth virus which is asymptomatic the first 5 days on average, these are the "spreaders".

legohead 7y ago

I'm also curious about how they are dealing with the actual sent packages. From past videos I've seen, workers place the objects in boxes. So if a worker is sick, wouldn't they be sending contaminated items out? Is amazon doing anything about that in particular?

AndrewKemendo 7y ago

This sentence stuck out to me: "The company will also use machine-learning software to monitor building cameras and determine whether employees are staying at safe distances during their shifts, or whether they are often huddled too close together" I can see that working in tandem with some kind of alarm or alert sounding when workers are too close together. The second order effect, would be some kind of Pavlovian response in Amazon warehouse workers even beyond this physical distancing period. That's the kind of stuff you used to read in sci-fi novels.

SamuelAdams 7y ago
In the same vein, it would be kind of cool if there was a wristband / necklace kit that vibrated aggressively if they were placed within close proximity. For example, most people touch their face between 2-3,000 times a day. The current CDC recommendation is to not touch your face, but people do this unconsciously. So make two wrist bands, wear one on each wrist. Then also make a necklace of some kind, and if a wristband is brought within 1-2 inches of the necklace, vibrate the wristband somehow. This will alert the person that they are touching their face and after enough use, they will hopefully do it less.
- Klathmon 7y ago
  I wonder if this could be done with a smartwatch alone. Touching your face means that your hand is at a specific angle, and probably has some accelerometer and gyroscope readings that can be identified as "touching your face" vs "raising your hand" or lifting things or whatever else. Dedicated hardware would be nice, but it's unlikely to be useful in time for the current pandemic. But an app that was like 90% accurate that could be released right now (or within a week or 2) might be able to make a difference.
3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
We perfected behavior tracking on the web. Now it’s time to try it out in real life.
oski 7y ago
This is the premise of the Amazon Go stores, walk-in, grab-stuff, walk-out. No checkout. All ML based video surveillance. They probably use the same underlying technology.

AdrianB1 7y ago

I cannot find accurate information, but the duration of the illness for the people that do recover from mild cases is around 12-15 days; sending people home if they have fever for "minimum 3 days" does not make sense, you send them home until they have no fever for at least 3 days, so they are clean.

andy_ppp 7y ago

They seem to have randomly stopped delivering some items for 3 weeks even though they have them in stock. It's very inconsistent; I need a new inner tube which will be delivered tomorrow but while I'm at it I could do with new tires too, but those don't turn up until 30th April even though they are in stock. Could they not just deliver the items all at the same time?

sjg007 7y ago

I just hope Amazon has bulked ordered masks of sufficient quality that we ourselves can buy some from Amazon.com that are sold by Amazon. We have to move to a mask culture until we get a vaccine.