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Weird, surprising and unhelpful are value judgements on your part. It could be a security feature to someone else! The hidden (not deleted) comments are hidden

by j0057 7y ago

Weird, surprising and unhelpful are value judgements on your part. It could be a security feature to someone else! The hidden (not deleted) comments are hidden not because they contain criticism, but because of an unnecessarily harsh tone, which is unhelpful to anyone wanting to read up on the discussion at hand, and definitely not helpful for the motivation of anybody currently doing the unthankful work of maintaining pip. They do a very difficult job, where they have to deal with 20+ years of legacy, many different operating systems, many different Python distributions, many different skill levels in their user base, and even having to fight OSS fatigue due to unconstructive criticism. Pip is as good as it is due to their hard work, and we should be thankful to them.

earthboundkid 7y ago
> The hidden (not deleted) comments are hidden not because they contain criticism, but because of an unnecessarily harsh tone, which is unhelpful to anyone wanting to read up on the discussion at hand, and definitely not helpful for the motivation of anybody currently doing the unthankful work of maintaining pip. I reread the thread last night and asked, Was I too harsh? Am I discouraging the thankless pip team? Obviously, I am biased towards myself, but no, I don't think I am the one doing the discouraging. They are the ones doing the discouraging. Go back through the comments and look at who is PyPA official and who's not: the non-members have ideas and members shoot them down. It's not that complicated technically--there should be a switch called "require hashes" instead of an implicit requirement for hashes once you use one. But the PyPA devs just showed zero interest in understanding the problem or helping. Their first comment was that error message was fine, nothing to fix!!! I ask myself, would I want to contribute a patch to pip? I contribute patches occasionally to OSS. Not every day, but every couple of months when something comes up that affects me. I would never bother. Why? It's obvious from their tone that the patch would be stuck in a queue and never reviewed. (This happened to a coworker at a former job. We maintained a patched version of pip for years because they wouldn't take our change.) In contrast, I just submitted a broken patch to Go (I broke tests and said so in my patch) and the Go team took it and fixed the tests. Why did I bother to submit a broken patch to Go? Because it was pretty clear from the tone of the discussion that if I got the ball rolling, they would push it the rest of the way over the hill and I want the issue fixed in the next version of Go, so I submitted what I had even without going through and fixing all the tests (which I didn't have the expertise to do). Now, this is not the same. Go is supported by Google and has money and developers, yada yada. But the Python Foundation is an organization. It has a payroll. It has official members. They could ask the EU for €5m grant to work with N devs for Y years fixing Python packaging… Whatever. I'm not in charge of PyPA, so it's not my problem. But I do object to the gaslighting in implying that we, the users, are discouraging the poor, unthanked PyPA devs. No, they don't want to be helped, so they put out the vibe to make it clear we should leave them alone.
- j0057 7y ago
  Well, at your use of the term 'gaslighting' I kind of like to quietly step out of saying, OK, whatever, this discussion has become especially unproductive.
  - earthboundkid 7y ago
    If you know of another term for "someone else making you think the real problem is with you when in fact you're making a perfectly reasonable request" I'd be happy to use it to avoid triggering snowflake cons.

by j0057 7y ago

earthboundkid 7y ago

> The hidden (not deleted) comments are hidden not because they contain criticism, but because of an unnecessarily harsh tone, which is unhelpful to anyone wanting to read up on the discussion at hand, and definitely not helpful for the motivation of anybody currently doing the unthankful work of maintaining pip. I reread the thread last night and asked, Was I too harsh? Am I discouraging the thankless pip team? Obviously, I am biased towards myself, but no, I don't think I am the one doing the discouraging. They are the ones doing the discouraging. Go back through the comments and look at who is PyPA official and who's not: the non-members have ideas and members shoot them down. It's not that complicated technically--there should be a switch called "require hashes" instead of an implicit requirement for hashes once you use one. But the PyPA devs just showed zero interest in understanding the problem or helping. Their first comment was that error message was fine, nothing to fix!!! I ask myself, would I want to contribute a patch to pip? I contribute patches occasionally to OSS. Not every day, but every couple of months when something comes up that affects me. I would never bother. Why? It's obvious from their tone that the patch would be stuck in a queue and never reviewed. (This happened to a coworker at a former job. We maintained a patched version of pip for years because they wouldn't take our change.) In contrast, I just submitted a broken patch to Go (I broke tests and said so in my patch) and the Go team took it and fixed the tests. Why did I bother to submit a broken patch to Go? Because it was pretty clear from the tone of the discussion that if I got the ball rolling, they would push it the rest of the way over the hill and I want the issue fixed in the next version of Go, so I submitted what I had even without going through and fixing all the tests (which I didn't have the expertise to do). Now, this is not the same. Go is supported by Google and has money and developers, yada yada. But the Python Foundation is an organization. It has a payroll. It has official members. They could ask the EU for €5m grant to work with N devs for Y years fixing Python packaging… Whatever. I'm not in charge of PyPA, so it's not my problem. But I do object to the gaslighting in implying that we, the users, are discouraging the poor, unthanked PyPA devs. No, they don't want to be helped, so they put out the vibe to make it clear we should leave them alone.

j0057 7y ago
Well, at your use of the term 'gaslighting' I kind of like to quietly step out of saying, OK, whatever, this discussion has become especially unproductive.
- earthboundkid 7y ago
  If you know of another term for "someone else making you think the real problem is with you when in fact you're making a perfectly reasonable request" I'd be happy to use it to avoid triggering snowflake cons.