4 ms·

> Is it necessarily a problem? Yes, you neglect the concept of precaution. I draw the parallels to • wearing face masks, • neither confirming nor denying whe

by bmn__ 7y ago

> Is it necessarily a problem? Yes, you neglect the concept of precaution. I draw the parallels to • wearing face masks, • neither confirming nor denying when asked whether one did something naughty. (See the Plausible Deniability story arc in HPMOR.) If one does not do it regularly and only in times of necessity, it stands out as weird, socially not acceptable, drawing attention. We want encryption everywhere, every time, even when it's not strictly needed, so it is a socially normal thing to do, which in turn fuels wide-spread use, which benefits everyone through strong network effects.

kristopolous 7y ago
Ok let's leave the theoretical analogy world and talk about the material, concrete, actual reality in actual practice. the crda regdb database in the Linux kernel, this one https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/developers/regulatory/wireless-regdb https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/developers/regulatory/wi... It's encrypted and there's a long (somewhat silly) explanation of why it's not in a plain ascii format like everything else. You can't just crack it open and try something if you have a country hardware locked wireless device (via it's firmware). It's still possible to do here with a bit of effort but the next one isn't. Android adoptable storage, unlike Android traditional storage will encrypt without telling the user https://source.android.com/devices/storage/adoptable https://source.android.com/devices/storage/adoptable You can not get access to the decryption keys if you haven't rooted your phone. You need to hack your own device to look at what you stored on your sd card. If you're having a failing sd card and want to do recovery on it, well too bad, it's now utterly impossible, even if you own the phone. These are just two real world actual problems I've run into in the past week alone. Encryption can be, and often is used to be an extremely hostile, closed-data system. So that devices I Own, with My data I don't have access to and cannot see. That's not a better society, just like closed source isn't a better world.
- bmn__ 7y ago
  > the crda regdb database […] It's encrypted That's false. It's just a binary database file. See man 5 regulatory.db $ hex /lib/firmware/regulatory.db | head -n 10 0000 52 47 44 42 00 00 00 14 30 30 03 61 41 44 03 c5 RGDB␀␀␀␔00␃aAD␃Å 0010 41 45 03 bb 41 46 03 cc 41 49 03 dd 41 4c 03 cc AE␃»AF␃ÌAI␃ÝAL␃Ì 0020 41 4d 03 a3 41 4e 03 cc 41 52 03 bb 41 53 03 79 AM␃£AN␃ÌAR␃»AS␃y 0030 41 54 03 e4 41 55 03 58 41 57 03 cc 41 5a 03 bf AT␃äAU␃XAW␃ÌAZ␃¿ 0040 42 41 03 e4 42 42 03 f5 42 44 04 15 42 45 03 e4 BA␃äBB␃õBD␄␕BE␃ä 0050 42 46 03 bb 42 47 03 fd 42 48 03 a6 42 4c 03 cc BF␃»BG␃ýBH␃¦BL␃Ì 0060 42 4d 03 79 42 4e 03 da 42 4f 04 10 42 52 03 bb BM␃yBN␃ÚBO␄␐BR␃» 0070 42 53 04 05 42 54 03 cc 42 59 03 cc 42 5a 04 24 BS␄␅BT␃ÌBY␃ÌBZ␄$ 0080 43 41 03 66 43 46 03 a9 43 48 03 98 43 49 03 bb CA␃fCF␃©CH␃�CI␃» 0090 43 4c 03 da 43 4e 03 f8 43 4f 03 bb 43 52 03 9f CL␃ÚCN␃øCO␃»CR␃� The documentation talks about optionally signing the database with a key. You confuse things. A signature is not encryption. > Android adoptable storage […] will encrypt without telling the user […] You can not get access to the decryption keys if you haven't rooted your phone. […] If you're having a failing sd card and want to do recovery on it, well too bad, it's now utterly impossible, even if you own the phone. Works as designed? In this scenario, you're not the recipient of encrypted transmission, you're the adversary. You should not be upset at encryption as a generic tool. You should be upset at the creators of this system that turns people who paid good money to own a mobile computer into dependent thralls: they cannot exercise the freedom to do with their property what they want. The answer to that injustice is not to abolish encryption, but to abolish the use of non-free software that enables the creation of such systems. The predications from my previous post still stand.
  - kristopolous 7y ago
    Of course it's the implementation that matters and how it's used, that's the whole point. The reality is important. It Has To Be Done Better. Sorry about the regdb example, that was me being frustrated with it and not looking deeply into it yesterday. I saw the binary format, saw the signing and just kinda assumed the rest (I've been trying to get a stronger 802.11 signal from these usb alfa and panda adapters on this pi4 I'm using) Anyway, it could be a bold protector of personal liberty or another cargo cult ceremony on the checklist and callously shoehorned in inappropriate places. It could be a defense of privacy that Schneier holds dear or a way for a company to hide from the user what it's recording and tracking through closed encrypted data It could be Zimmerman's dream or make it so people get locked out of things they own. Locked out of their Bitcoin wallets, hard drives, phones, just about everything. The "encrypt everywhere" assumes the rosiest of intentions from one group and the most malevolent from another. It assumes perfect technology without failure or fault, perfect human memory, and perfect organization. I call it homo securitis. Humans don't work that way. (After https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus) That's why I can sit around all day and give you endless real life horror stories. For the bitcoin example, I've personally lost north of a million dollars through mismanagement of wallets (I wasn't monitoring disk failure on a raid array around 2012 and 2 of them finally went). You can look at this list (https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.html https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses....) - there's a number of wallets, hundreds, with histories like this: https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/address/12ib7dApVFvg82TXKycWBNpN8kFyiAN1dr https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/address/12ib7dApVFvg82TXKy..., last activity 2010. Either this person has the discipline of a soldier or they lost access to it. Hard disk crash, accidental deletion, who knows - normal human failure in an imperfect world. Human practicality matters. Imagine if a traditional bank kept 243 million locked away forever because you lost a special ID card they sent you in the mail in 2009. This stuff matters. An excuse of "well it's your fault for not being perfectly organized on perfect systems" doesn't cut it. Encryption and security is too often an unsophisticated hammer that's getting tossed and applied without consideration of the nuances of reality. It Has To Be Done Better. Not "don't do it". But instead "stop foolishly doing it so naively". Otherwise there will be a large push back and nobody will want it at all.

by bmn__ 7y ago

kristopolous 7y ago

Ok let's leave the theoretical analogy world and talk about the material, concrete, actual reality in actual practice. the crda regdb database in the Linux kernel, this one https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/developers/regulatory/wireless-regdb https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/developers/regulatory/wi... It's encrypted and there's a long (somewhat silly) explanation of why it's not in a plain ascii format like everything else. You can't just crack it open and try something if you have a country hardware locked wireless device (via it's firmware). It's still possible to do here with a bit of effort but the next one isn't. Android adoptable storage, unlike Android traditional storage will encrypt without telling the user https://source.android.com/devices/storage/adoptable https://source.android.com/devices/storage/adoptable You can not get access to the decryption keys if you haven't rooted your phone. You need to hack your own device to look at what you stored on your sd card. If you're having a failing sd card and want to do recovery on it, well too bad, it's now utterly impossible, even if you own the phone. These are just two real world actual problems I've run into in the past week alone. Encryption can be, and often is used to be an extremely hostile, closed-data system. So that devices I Own, with My data I don't have access to and cannot see. That's not a better society, just like closed source isn't a better world.

bmn__ 7y ago
> the crda regdb database […] It's encrypted That's false. It's just a binary database file. See man 5 regulatory.db $ hex /lib/firmware/regulatory.db | head -n 10 0000 52 47 44 42 00 00 00 14 30 30 03 61 41 44 03 c5 RGDB␀␀␀␔00␃aAD␃Å 0010 41 45 03 bb 41 46 03 cc 41 49 03 dd 41 4c 03 cc AE␃»AF␃ÌAI␃ÝAL␃Ì 0020 41 4d 03 a3 41 4e 03 cc 41 52 03 bb 41 53 03 79 AM␃£AN␃ÌAR␃»AS␃y 0030 41 54 03 e4 41 55 03 58 41 57 03 cc 41 5a 03 bf AT␃äAU␃XAW␃ÌAZ␃¿ 0040 42 41 03 e4 42 42 03 f5 42 44 04 15 42 45 03 e4 BA␃äBB␃õBD␄␕BE␃ä 0050 42 46 03 bb 42 47 03 fd 42 48 03 a6 42 4c 03 cc BF␃»BG␃ýBH␃¦BL␃Ì 0060 42 4d 03 79 42 4e 03 da 42 4f 04 10 42 52 03 bb BM␃yBN␃ÚBO␄␐BR␃» 0070 42 53 04 05 42 54 03 cc 42 59 03 cc 42 5a 04 24 BS␄␅BT␃ÌBY␃ÌBZ␄$ 0080 43 41 03 66 43 46 03 a9 43 48 03 98 43 49 03 bb CA␃fCF␃©CH␃�CI␃» 0090 43 4c 03 da 43 4e 03 f8 43 4f 03 bb 43 52 03 9f CL␃ÚCN␃øCO␃»CR␃� The documentation talks about optionally signing the database with a key. You confuse things. A signature is not encryption. > Android adoptable storage […] will encrypt without telling the user […] You can not get access to the decryption keys if you haven't rooted your phone. […] If you're having a failing sd card and want to do recovery on it, well too bad, it's now utterly impossible, even if you own the phone. Works as designed? In this scenario, you're not the recipient of encrypted transmission, you're the adversary. You should not be upset at encryption as a generic tool. You should be upset at the creators of this system that turns people who paid good money to own a mobile computer into dependent thralls: they cannot exercise the freedom to do with their property what they want. The answer to that injustice is not to abolish encryption, but to abolish the use of non-free software that enables the creation of such systems. The predications from my previous post still stand.
- kristopolous 7y ago
  Of course it's the implementation that matters and how it's used, that's the whole point. The reality is important. It Has To Be Done Better. Sorry about the regdb example, that was me being frustrated with it and not looking deeply into it yesterday. I saw the binary format, saw the signing and just kinda assumed the rest (I've been trying to get a stronger 802.11 signal from these usb alfa and panda adapters on this pi4 I'm using) Anyway, it could be a bold protector of personal liberty or another cargo cult ceremony on the checklist and callously shoehorned in inappropriate places. It could be a defense of privacy that Schneier holds dear or a way for a company to hide from the user what it's recording and tracking through closed encrypted data It could be Zimmerman's dream or make it so people get locked out of things they own. Locked out of their Bitcoin wallets, hard drives, phones, just about everything. The "encrypt everywhere" assumes the rosiest of intentions from one group and the most malevolent from another. It assumes perfect technology without failure or fault, perfect human memory, and perfect organization. I call it homo securitis. Humans don't work that way. (After https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus) That's why I can sit around all day and give you endless real life horror stories. For the bitcoin example, I've personally lost north of a million dollars through mismanagement of wallets (I wasn't monitoring disk failure on a raid array around 2012 and 2 of them finally went). You can look at this list (https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.html https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses....) - there's a number of wallets, hundreds, with histories like this: https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/address/12ib7dApVFvg82TXKycWBNpN8kFyiAN1dr https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/address/12ib7dApVFvg82TXKy..., last activity 2010. Either this person has the discipline of a soldier or they lost access to it. Hard disk crash, accidental deletion, who knows - normal human failure in an imperfect world. Human practicality matters. Imagine if a traditional bank kept 243 million locked away forever because you lost a special ID card they sent you in the mail in 2009. This stuff matters. An excuse of "well it's your fault for not being perfectly organized on perfect systems" doesn't cut it. Encryption and security is too often an unsophisticated hammer that's getting tossed and applied without consideration of the nuances of reality. It Has To Be Done Better. Not "don't do it". But instead "stop foolishly doing it so naively". Otherwise there will be a large push back and nobody will want it at all.