6 ms·

This is completely ridiculous. iMessage is encrypted by my device and remains encrypted until it gets to the recipient device. That is what end-to-end encryptio

This is completely ridiculous. iMessage is encrypted by my device and remains encrypted until it gets to the recipient device. That is what end-to-end encryption means. That I may have given Apple my private key through a different message in no way affects that end-to-end encryption, because it is trivial to decide not to give Apple that key.

modeless 7y ago
iCloud isn't some separate entity from iMessage. It's all Apple. And you have no option to use a different cloud backup provider. You can decide not to give your keys to Apple, but you can't decide for all your friends to not give their keys to Apple, and the result is the same: Apple can read your messages. And the marketing is so misleading that hardly anyone knows that Apple can read most iMessages.
- jachee 7y ago
  Got any sources for that? Sounds a lot like FUD.
  - minitech 7y ago
    Sarcasm critique: I think a quote would make it clearer: > > iCloud isn't some separate entity from iMessage. It's all Apple. > Got any sources for that? Sounds a lot like FUD.
    - jachee 7y ago
      Not sarcasm. Sources please.
      - chews 7y ago
        Let's not use sarcasm or sources..... Let's puzzle it out. You don't use a password to encrypt your iCloud backups... They're specific to the hardware your backing up. If you have an itouch for example it's backups are separate from your phone. So now you have these backups in the cloud and you lose your iPhone, you remote wipe it. Now your new one arrives and you restore from backup... Your iMessage private keys are available to apple unencrypted .... Because you didn't need to provide a second factor of authentication for unlocking the backup you were just asked which one to use. Apple and any reputable nation-state can read your iMessages with a subpoena ... If you use iCloud backups and not local backups with a password.
        jachee 7y ago
        1) No such thing as an “itouch” 2) What about your iCloud account and password that are required to encrypt, store, access, and decrypt the backups there? Is that not a factor worth consideration?
        mulmen 7y ago
        Your password is not a factor worth considering. You can ask Apple to change it. That means they have the ability to change it. That means they have access.
        peteretep 7y ago
        > nation-state I wish this meme of trying to sound fancy by misusing the term "nation-state" would die.
  - modeless 7y ago
    "If you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your Messages. This ensures you can recover your Messages if you lose access to iCloud Keychain and your trusted devices." https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- peteretep 7y ago
  Sorry, let's be explicit here, as you seem intent on muddying the issue. Where, other than the endpoints, is the message decrypted when people use iMessage? Your succinct answer to that will clear this up for everyone.
  - lern_too_spel 7y ago
    On GCBD's servers in China. Possibly on Apple's servers in the US if they are running a wiretap. Due to the way key distribution works for iMessage, it is trivial for Apple and GCBD to do so. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22755903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22755903
    - peteretep 7y ago
      Your message, through several layers of indirection, relies on a security conference paper from 7 years ago[0] + the assumption that Apple haven't updated the protocol in 7 those years. [0] https://blog.quarkslab.com/imessage-privacy.html https://blog.quarkslab.com/imessage-privacy.html
      - lern_too_spel 7y ago
        No, my message relies on the fact that people have been looking at iMessage for years, and nobody, least of all Apple, has said that the implementation changed in any way to prevent Apple from viewing the messages. Here is another article from 2016, which shows that Apple patched iMessage to prevent attackers who don't have access to Apple's servers from reading the messages but still kept the ability to read the messages themselves. https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/category/imessage/ https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/category/imessage/ Apple was aware that people knew it could decrypt iMessage messages this entire time, but Apple made no changes that would fix that. That should give you some idea of whether Apple intends to ever fix that.
    - giantDinosaur 7y ago
      Apple can, of course, do whatever it likes, up to simply recording the screen and sending that to weird & wonderful government agencies. Like almost everything in mainstream security, it comes down to who you trust. It doesn't mean it isn't E2E though.

modeless 7y ago

iCloud isn't some separate entity from iMessage. It's all Apple. And you have no option to use a different cloud backup provider. You can decide not to give your keys to Apple, but you can't decide for all your friends to not give their keys to Apple, and the result is the same: Apple can read your messages. And the marketing is so misleading that hardly anyone knows that Apple can read most iMessages.

jachee 7y ago
Got any sources for that? Sounds a lot like FUD.
- minitech 7y ago
  Sarcasm critique: I think a quote would make it clearer: > > iCloud isn't some separate entity from iMessage. It's all Apple. > Got any sources for that? Sounds a lot like FUD.
  - jachee 7y ago
    Not sarcasm. Sources please.
    - chews 7y ago
      Let's not use sarcasm or sources..... Let's puzzle it out. You don't use a password to encrypt your iCloud backups... They're specific to the hardware your backing up. If you have an itouch for example it's backups are separate from your phone. So now you have these backups in the cloud and you lose your iPhone, you remote wipe it. Now your new one arrives and you restore from backup... Your iMessage private keys are available to apple unencrypted .... Because you didn't need to provide a second factor of authentication for unlocking the backup you were just asked which one to use. Apple and any reputable nation-state can read your iMessages with a subpoena ... If you use iCloud backups and not local backups with a password.
      - jachee 7y ago
        1) No such thing as an “itouch” 2) What about your iCloud account and password that are required to encrypt, store, access, and decrypt the backups there? Is that not a factor worth consideration?
        mulmen 7y ago
        Your password is not a factor worth considering. You can ask Apple to change it. That means they have the ability to change it. That means they have access.
      - peteretep 7y ago
        > nation-state I wish this meme of trying to sound fancy by misusing the term "nation-state" would die.
- modeless 7y ago
  "If you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your Messages. This ensures you can recover your Messages if you lose access to iCloud Keychain and your trusted devices." https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
peteretep 7y ago
Sorry, let's be explicit here, as you seem intent on muddying the issue. Where, other than the endpoints, is the message decrypted when people use iMessage? Your succinct answer to that will clear this up for everyone.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  On GCBD's servers in China. Possibly on Apple's servers in the US if they are running a wiretap. Due to the way key distribution works for iMessage, it is trivial for Apple and GCBD to do so. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22755903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22755903
  - peteretep 7y ago
    Your message, through several layers of indirection, relies on a security conference paper from 7 years ago[0] + the assumption that Apple haven't updated the protocol in 7 those years. [0] https://blog.quarkslab.com/imessage-privacy.html https://blog.quarkslab.com/imessage-privacy.html
    - lern_too_spel 7y ago
      No, my message relies on the fact that people have been looking at iMessage for years, and nobody, least of all Apple, has said that the implementation changed in any way to prevent Apple from viewing the messages. Here is another article from 2016, which shows that Apple patched iMessage to prevent attackers who don't have access to Apple's servers from reading the messages but still kept the ability to read the messages themselves. https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/category/imessage/ https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/category/imessage/ Apple was aware that people knew it could decrypt iMessage messages this entire time, but Apple made no changes that would fix that. That should give you some idea of whether Apple intends to ever fix that.
  - giantDinosaur 7y ago
    Apple can, of course, do whatever it likes, up to simply recording the screen and sending that to weird & wonderful government agencies. Like almost everything in mainstream security, it comes down to who you trust. It doesn't mean it isn't E2E though.