7 ms·

At 6 GHz. This is super exciting. I have a huge backlog of fun wideband radio projects (radar, spread spectrum, etc.) that I've never been motivated enough to s

by ohazi 7y ago

At 6 GHz. This is super exciting. I have a huge backlog of fun wideband radio projects (radar, spread spectrum, etc.) that I've never been motivated enough to start because it would technically be illegal.

wbl 7y ago
Get a ham license and they become legal.
- m463 7y ago
  can you do encrypted communications with a ham license? (does spread spectrum qualify?)
  - freeqaz 7y ago
    Unfortunately, you can't. It's silly[0]. [0]: https://www.amateurradio.com/encryption-is-already-legal-its-the-intention-thats-not/ https://www.amateurradio.com/encryption-is-already-legal-its...
    - tlrobinson 7y ago
      Your link isn't arguing that encryption being prohibited is silly, it's arguing that proprietary protocols like D-STAR are effectively "intended to obscure the meaning of the communication" (for profit rather than secrecy) and shouldn't be allowed.
      - paulgerhardt 7y ago
        My understanding was under one interpretation encryption was always permitted by the FCC on ham bands over 50mhz but by a 2:1 majority common wisdom within the community (and the ARRL itself) hadn't come around to this line or reasoning[1]. Specifically encryption is not allowed if it's "for obscuring meaning except for the following circumstances" of which authentication and securing network operations are two. I would want some legal precedent or an amendment to the code before weighing on this too heavily to see which of the two interpretations takes priority. That article isn't the final word but it's interesting following the work of the broadband-hamnet folks - particularly in Texas[2]. They mostly say one can't use encrypted traffic. They are however relaying IP traffic but imply one shouldn't use https. During National Emergencies (like now?) a lot of the rules around call signs, power, and presumably encryption fall by the wayside. In practice it looks like the FCC grants per disaster waivers[3]. [1] https://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/Data%20Encryption%20is%20Legal.pdf https://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/Data%20Encrypti... - the lede is buried on page 3 [2] https://hotarc.org/mesh/ https://hotarc.org/mesh/ [3] http://www.arrl.org/news/fcc-grants-temporary-waiver-permitting-use-of-pactor-4-for-hurricane-response-and-relief http://www.arrl.org/news/fcc-grants-temporary-waiver-permitt...
  - segfaultbuserr 7y ago
    > can you do encrypted communications with a ham license? No. It's prohibited internationally and enforced by all ITU member states, the only exception which encryption is acceptable is the control uplink to aircraft and spacecraft. Although in some countries, using encryption domestically, purely for access control (not for confidentiality) is acceptable under some circumstances, if you publish your key. > does spread spectrum qualify? No. There are additional rules governing spread spectrum communications, but it doesn't automatically imply encryption. Many spread spectrum systems use weak PRNG and not meant for encryption.
    - Causality1 7y ago
      So what's the motivation for disallowing encryption on ham channels?
      - Danieru 7y ago
        No doubt to prevent abuse and allow identification of violators. Encryption would open the bands to general commercial usage. My uncle works in Canada's spectrum enforcement. You would be surprised at how many small business attempt to violate band licenses to save a few bucks. Think taxi or logging services with commms on protected bands.
        Causality1 7y ago
        ... But if they're violating the rules in some other way why wouldn't they also encrypt?
        tlrobinson 7y ago
        You have it backwards. They can't violate the rules now because it would be obvious. If encryption were allowed it would be impossible to know if a transmission is violating certain rules or not.
        Causality1 7y ago
eqvinox 7y ago
This does nothing to make your projects legal. "Open" spectrum like this only allows you to operate certified devices where the vendor made some assurance that they actually stick to their band and power limit, and don't interfere on some random harmonic. To build your projects you need a ham license, and if you have that you have the ham allocations.
- segfaultbuserr 7y ago
  > This does nothing to make your projects legal. "Open" spectrum like this only allows you to operate certified devices where the vendor Yes, most radio transmitters are certificated (including Part 15 transmitters like Wi-Fi routers), but homebrew devices should still be possible under Part 15 without certification. Part 15 allows the use of unlicensed radio transmitters built for personal use, not marketed, not constructed from a kit, and built in quantities of five or less, without going through the process of certification by regulators. See [0]. However, whether it can be implemented within the technical requirement and limitation of Part 15 is another question. Usually, Part 15 is very limited, it may or may not be usable for your project, unlike the amateur radio service (Part 97), which is a more powerful service. > actually stick to their band and power limit, and don't interfere on some random harmonic. To build your projects you need a ham license. Same for ham. The only difference is that certification by a regulator is not needed, and the technical standards that need to be satisfied is different, but regardless of what service you operate in, you must test your equipment by yourself to ensure the technical requirements are not violated. [0] https://ham.stackexchange.com/questions/1016/what-are-the-us-rules-about-unlicensed-low-power-transmissions https://ham.stackexchange.com/questions/1016/what-are-the-us...
  - eqvinox 7y ago
    Admittedly I'm hazy on the details, I just stowed away the bottom line ;). AFAIR what it boils down to is that if you have a ham license, there is a presumption that you know to some extent what you're doing (15.15.a?); so if you do break something it probably makes the distinction between "reckless" and "accidental". Honestly if you do it well the question won't come up. So either you learn your shit well enough for it to not matter, or you get the ham license for insurance at the cost of at least proving you got the gist down. shrug :)

by ohazi 7y ago

wbl 7y ago

Get a ham license and they become legal.

m463 7y ago
can you do encrypted communications with a ham license? (does spread spectrum qualify?)
- freeqaz 7y ago
  Unfortunately, you can't. It's silly[0]. [0]: https://www.amateurradio.com/encryption-is-already-legal-its-the-intention-thats-not/ https://www.amateurradio.com/encryption-is-already-legal-its...
  - tlrobinson 7y ago
    Your link isn't arguing that encryption being prohibited is silly, it's arguing that proprietary protocols like D-STAR are effectively "intended to obscure the meaning of the communication" (for profit rather than secrecy) and shouldn't be allowed.
    - paulgerhardt 7y ago
      My understanding was under one interpretation encryption was always permitted by the FCC on ham bands over 50mhz but by a 2:1 majority common wisdom within the community (and the ARRL itself) hadn't come around to this line or reasoning[1]. Specifically encryption is not allowed if it's "for obscuring meaning except for the following circumstances" of which authentication and securing network operations are two. I would want some legal precedent or an amendment to the code before weighing on this too heavily to see which of the two interpretations takes priority. That article isn't the final word but it's interesting following the work of the broadband-hamnet folks - particularly in Texas[2]. They mostly say one can't use encrypted traffic. They are however relaying IP traffic but imply one shouldn't use https. During National Emergencies (like now?) a lot of the rules around call signs, power, and presumably encryption fall by the wayside. In practice it looks like the FCC grants per disaster waivers[3]. [1] https://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/Data%20Encryption%20is%20Legal.pdf https://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/Data%20Encrypti... - the lede is buried on page 3 [2] https://hotarc.org/mesh/ https://hotarc.org/mesh/ [3] http://www.arrl.org/news/fcc-grants-temporary-waiver-permitting-use-of-pactor-4-for-hurricane-response-and-relief http://www.arrl.org/news/fcc-grants-temporary-waiver-permitt...
- segfaultbuserr 7y ago
  > can you do encrypted communications with a ham license? No. It's prohibited internationally and enforced by all ITU member states, the only exception which encryption is acceptable is the control uplink to aircraft and spacecraft. Although in some countries, using encryption domestically, purely for access control (not for confidentiality) is acceptable under some circumstances, if you publish your key. > does spread spectrum qualify? No. There are additional rules governing spread spectrum communications, but it doesn't automatically imply encryption. Many spread spectrum systems use weak PRNG and not meant for encryption.
  - Causality1 7y ago
    So what's the motivation for disallowing encryption on ham channels?
    - Danieru 7y ago
      No doubt to prevent abuse and allow identification of violators. Encryption would open the bands to general commercial usage. My uncle works in Canada's spectrum enforcement. You would be surprised at how many small business attempt to violate band licenses to save a few bucks. Think taxi or logging services with commms on protected bands.
      - Causality1 7y ago
        ... But if they're violating the rules in some other way why wouldn't they also encrypt?
        tlrobinson 7y ago
        You have it backwards. They can't violate the rules now because it would be obvious. If encryption were allowed it would be impossible to know if a transmission is violating certain rules or not.
        Causality1 7y ago

eqvinox 7y ago

This does nothing to make your projects legal. "Open" spectrum like this only allows you to operate certified devices where the vendor made some assurance that they actually stick to their band and power limit, and don't interfere on some random harmonic. To build your projects you need a ham license, and if you have that you have the ham allocations.

segfaultbuserr 7y ago
> This does nothing to make your projects legal. "Open" spectrum like this only allows you to operate certified devices where the vendor Yes, most radio transmitters are certificated (including Part 15 transmitters like Wi-Fi routers), but homebrew devices should still be possible under Part 15 without certification. Part 15 allows the use of unlicensed radio transmitters built for personal use, not marketed, not constructed from a kit, and built in quantities of five or less, without going through the process of certification by regulators. See [0]. However, whether it can be implemented within the technical requirement and limitation of Part 15 is another question. Usually, Part 15 is very limited, it may or may not be usable for your project, unlike the amateur radio service (Part 97), which is a more powerful service. > actually stick to their band and power limit, and don't interfere on some random harmonic. To build your projects you need a ham license. Same for ham. The only difference is that certification by a regulator is not needed, and the technical standards that need to be satisfied is different, but regardless of what service you operate in, you must test your equipment by yourself to ensure the technical requirements are not violated. [0] https://ham.stackexchange.com/questions/1016/what-are-the-us-rules-about-unlicensed-low-power-transmissions https://ham.stackexchange.com/questions/1016/what-are-the-us...
- eqvinox 7y ago
  Admittedly I'm hazy on the details, I just stowed away the bottom line ;). AFAIR what it boils down to is that if you have a ham license, there is a presumption that you know to some extent what you're doing (15.15.a?); so if you do break something it probably makes the distinction between "reckless" and "accidental". Honestly if you do it well the question won't come up. So either you learn your shit well enough for it to not matter, or you get the ham license for insurance at the cost of at least proving you got the gist down. shrug :)