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This is not true. Don't spread FUD. Apple does not have the ability to read your messages. All messages stored on their servers are encrypted with keys that liv

This is not true. Don't spread FUD. Apple does not have the ability to read your messages. All messages stored on their servers are encrypted with keys that live only on the phone. iMessage doesn't store your decryption keys on Apple's servers unless you opt into iCloud backup which is a whole different service and security concern.

modeless 7y ago
Most people use iCloud backup. Even if you don't, your messages are still sent to Apple by the recipient. And Apple prohibits third party backup services. > Apple does not have the ability to read your messages. iCloud backup is an Apple service and it has the ability to read most of your messages even if you don't use it, which makes this statement categorically false.
- peteretep 7y ago
  This is completely ridiculous. iMessage is encrypted by my device and remains encrypted until it gets to the recipient device. That is what end-to-end encryption means. That I may have given Apple my private key through a different message in no way affects that end-to-end encryption, because it is trivial to decide not to give Apple that key.
  - modeless 7y ago
    iCloud isn't some separate entity from iMessage. It's all Apple. And you have no option to use a different cloud backup provider. You can decide not to give your keys to Apple, but you can't decide for all your friends to not give their keys to Apple, and the result is the same: Apple can read your messages. And the marketing is so misleading that hardly anyone knows that Apple can read most iMessages.
    - jachee 7y ago
      Got any sources for that? Sounds a lot like FUD.
      - minitech 7y ago
        Sarcasm critique: I think a quote would make it clearer: > > iCloud isn't some separate entity from iMessage. It's all Apple. > Got any sources for that? Sounds a lot like FUD.
        jachee 7y ago
        Not sarcasm. Sources please.
        chews 7y ago
        Let's not use sarcasm or sources..... Let's puzzle it out. You don't use a password to encrypt your iCloud backups... They're specific to the hardware your backing up. If you have an itouch for example it's backups are separate from your phone. So now you have these backups in the cloud and you lose your iPhone, you remote wipe it. Now your new one arrives and you restore from backup... Your iMessage private keys are available to apple unencrypted .... Because you didn't need to provide a second factor of authentication for unlocking the backup you were just asked which one to use. Apple and any reputable nation-state can read your iMessages with a subpoena ... If you use iCloud backups and not local backups with a password.
        jachee 7y ago
        1) No such thing as an “itouch” 2) What about your iCloud account and password that are required to encrypt, store, access, and decrypt the backups there? Is that not a factor worth consideration?
        mulmen 7y ago
        Your password is not a factor worth considering. You can ask Apple to change it. That means they have the ability to change it. That means they have access.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - peteretep 7y ago
      Sorry, let's be explicit here, as you seem intent on muddying the issue. Where, other than the endpoints, is the message decrypted when people use iMessage? Your succinct answer to that will clear this up for everyone.
      - lern_too_spel 7y ago
        On GCBD's servers in China. Possibly on Apple's servers in the US if they are running a wiretap. Due to the way key distribution works for iMessage, it is trivial for Apple and GCBD to do so. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22755903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22755903
        peteretep 7y ago
        Your message, through several layers of indirection, relies on a security conference paper from 7 years ago[0] + the assumption that Apple haven't updated the protocol in 7 those years. [0] https://blog.quarkslab.com/imessage-privacy.html https://blog.quarkslab.com/imessage-privacy.html
        lern_too_spel 7y ago
        No, my message relies on the fact that people have been looking at iMessage for years, and nobody, least of all Apple, has said that the implementation changed in any way to prevent Apple from viewing the messages. Here is another article from 2016, which shows that Apple patched iMessage to prevent attackers who don't have access to Apple's servers from reading the messages but still kept the ability to read the messages themselves. https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/category/imessage/ https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/category/imessage/ Apple was aware that people knew it could decrypt iMessage messages this entire time, but Apple made no changes that would fix that. That should give you some idea of whether Apple intends to ever fix that.
        giantDinosaur 7y ago
        Apple can, of course, do whatever it likes, up to simply recording the screen and sending that to weird & wonderful government agencies. Like almost everything in mainstream security, it comes down to who you trust. It doesn't mean it isn't E2E though.
xyproto 7y ago
As a user, this is impossible to verify.
lern_too_spel 7y ago
Tuxer said "keys," not "your decryption keys." Apple distributes the public keys that each party encrypts their message with, and they route the encrypted messages through their servers. They can trivially eavesdrop on conversations by simply providing a key from a key pair they generate to a participant and reencrypting messages using the other parties' public keys after deciphering the messages. https://threatpost.com/apple-imessage-open-to-man-in-the-middle-spoofing-attacks/102610/ https://threatpost.com/apple-imessage-open-to-man-in-the-mid...
hashbig 7y ago
This is both true and false. Apple stores keys on the device so they can't read your old messages, but say they want to start reading messages of a particular user, they can simply issue a new key and store it on the device and the server and start decrypting the new messages using it. This is why WhatsApp for example notifies users when the key of the recipient changes, and they give you a way of verifying that the both keys at both ends are identical.
sneak 7y ago
iCloud Backup is opt out, not opt in. Apple has backed up iMessage keys for the vast majority of its users. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...

modeless 7y ago

Most people use iCloud backup. Even if you don't, your messages are still sent to Apple by the recipient. And Apple prohibits third party backup services. > Apple does not have the ability to read your messages. iCloud backup is an Apple service and it has the ability to read most of your messages even if you don't use it, which makes this statement categorically false.

peteretep 7y ago
This is completely ridiculous. iMessage is encrypted by my device and remains encrypted until it gets to the recipient device. That is what end-to-end encryption means. That I may have given Apple my private key through a different message in no way affects that end-to-end encryption, because it is trivial to decide not to give Apple that key.
- modeless 7y ago
  iCloud isn't some separate entity from iMessage. It's all Apple. And you have no option to use a different cloud backup provider. You can decide not to give your keys to Apple, but you can't decide for all your friends to not give their keys to Apple, and the result is the same: Apple can read your messages. And the marketing is so misleading that hardly anyone knows that Apple can read most iMessages.
  - jachee 7y ago
    Got any sources for that? Sounds a lot like FUD.
    - minitech 7y ago
      Sarcasm critique: I think a quote would make it clearer: > > iCloud isn't some separate entity from iMessage. It's all Apple. > Got any sources for that? Sounds a lot like FUD.
      - jachee 7y ago
        Not sarcasm. Sources please.
        chews 7y ago
        Let's not use sarcasm or sources..... Let's puzzle it out. You don't use a password to encrypt your iCloud backups... They're specific to the hardware your backing up. If you have an itouch for example it's backups are separate from your phone. So now you have these backups in the cloud and you lose your iPhone, you remote wipe it. Now your new one arrives and you restore from backup... Your iMessage private keys are available to apple unencrypted .... Because you didn't need to provide a second factor of authentication for unlocking the backup you were just asked which one to use. Apple and any reputable nation-state can read your iMessages with a subpoena ... If you use iCloud backups and not local backups with a password.
        jachee 7y ago
        1) No such thing as an “itouch” 2) What about your iCloud account and password that are required to encrypt, store, access, and decrypt the backups there? Is that not a factor worth consideration?
        mulmen 7y ago
        Your password is not a factor worth considering. You can ask Apple to change it. That means they have the ability to change it. That means they have access.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - peteretep 7y ago
    Sorry, let's be explicit here, as you seem intent on muddying the issue. Where, other than the endpoints, is the message decrypted when people use iMessage? Your succinct answer to that will clear this up for everyone.
    - lern_too_spel 7y ago
      On GCBD's servers in China. Possibly on Apple's servers in the US if they are running a wiretap. Due to the way key distribution works for iMessage, it is trivial for Apple and GCBD to do so. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22755903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22755903
      - peteretep 7y ago
        Your message, through several layers of indirection, relies on a security conference paper from 7 years ago[0] + the assumption that Apple haven't updated the protocol in 7 those years. [0] https://blog.quarkslab.com/imessage-privacy.html https://blog.quarkslab.com/imessage-privacy.html
        lern_too_spel 7y ago
        No, my message relies on the fact that people have been looking at iMessage for years, and nobody, least of all Apple, has said that the implementation changed in any way to prevent Apple from viewing the messages. Here is another article from 2016, which shows that Apple patched iMessage to prevent attackers who don't have access to Apple's servers from reading the messages but still kept the ability to read the messages themselves. https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/category/imessage/ https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/category/imessage/ Apple was aware that people knew it could decrypt iMessage messages this entire time, but Apple made no changes that would fix that. That should give you some idea of whether Apple intends to ever fix that.
      - giantDinosaur 7y ago
        Apple can, of course, do whatever it likes, up to simply recording the screen and sending that to weird & wonderful government agencies. Like almost everything in mainstream security, it comes down to who you trust. It doesn't mean it isn't E2E though.

xyproto 7y ago

As a user, this is impossible to verify.

lern_too_spel 7y ago

Tuxer said "keys," not "your decryption keys." Apple distributes the public keys that each party encrypts their message with, and they route the encrypted messages through their servers. They can trivially eavesdrop on conversations by simply providing a key from a key pair they generate to a participant and reencrypting messages using the other parties' public keys after deciphering the messages. https://threatpost.com/apple-imessage-open-to-man-in-the-middle-spoofing-attacks/102610/ https://threatpost.com/apple-imessage-open-to-man-in-the-mid...

hashbig 7y ago

This is both true and false. Apple stores keys on the device so they can't read your old messages, but say they want to start reading messages of a particular user, they can simply issue a new key and store it on the device and the server and start decrypting the new messages using it. This is why WhatsApp for example notifies users when the key of the recipient changes, and they give you a way of verifying that the both keys at both ends are identical.

sneak 7y ago

iCloud Backup is opt out, not opt in. Apple has backed up iMessage keys for the vast majority of its users. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...