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Expectations are handled when you sign employment contract. You are free to negotiate anything. I live in EU country with similar laws and still employees/emplo

Expectations are handled when you sign employment contract. You are free to negotiate anything. I live in EU country with similar laws and still employees/employers negotiate additional things which are are not written in the contract (because law forbids it). American freedom - its hard to imagine somebody complaining because the person has more individual choices

hirako2000 7y ago
While I agree in principle and wish more freedom in Europe, actually even more freedom in the US as well, it's in practice that it fails, especially in certain countries, and always in defavor of the workers. When the capital holders manage to unbalance the relationship with the workers, after failing to rebalance it, politics come into play and rules get voted to protect the workers from certain abuse. I wouldn't say it works well but it limits certain practices that would put the workers in serious troubles. In certain places, we've seen workers working over 60h per week, and not getting compensated enough to meet the ends. So you may say those workers should educate themselves and negociate better, but again it doesn't always work in practice.
- newswasboring 7y ago
  > educate themselves and negociate better, but again it doesn't always work in practice. I can't believe this is even a debate topic. How do you expect an engineer to compete with a lawyer who has studied it for years and has been practicing it for a while.
  - twomoretime 7y ago
    You don't need to be a legal expert to negotiate with your boss if you're an undercompensated employee...
    - newswasboring 7y ago
      1. Lawyers are not just about legality, they are trained negotiators and thinking in contract laws. 2. The manager potentially has/can get negotiation training, you have to pay out of your own pocket for yours. 3. The power dynamic is usually not in your favor, as long as unemployment is above zero in your specific field, it can never be in your favor.
      - twomoretime 7y ago
        Where do you work where all of management consists of lawyers? Even HR usually only keeps lawyers on retainer. The rest shouldn't really be that difficult if you're a competent person. I don't need training to show some combination of 1. I've been productive based on X and Y projects 2. I've saved/generated $X 3. I'm undervalued based on these x salaries or this average value from $reputable_website People treat negotiation like some kind of black magic. If your boss isn't a total asshole it isn't hard to make a case.
        newswasboring 7y ago
        Only the first point was about lawyers. The points you mentioned are coming from a place of privilege. If it was this easy everyone would have done it. I can say all this and my employer can say "ok go work for them" and then I have to uproot all my life because my visa is tied to my work. This is just one example, and I am not going to give any more because I don't think your are writing in good faith. You are not paying any attention to what life situations are or potential power dynamics.
        twomoretime 7y ago
        > The points you mentioned are coming from a place of privilege The fact that I disagree with you is not evidence of "bad faith." But since you bring up privilege, I think you're just making poor excuses. Your Visa situation does not represent the majority and dismissing every successful negotiation as "privileged" just breeds learned helplessness. If you have authorization to work in the country you live in and you can demonstrate that you're being underpaid, the onus is on you to approach your boss and make a case. You can always start looking for another job if they politely refuse. Or start looking first and come back with offers. This doesn't require any magical privilege. I'm also mildly offended that you believe yourself familiar with my situation. "Privilege" is turning into a racist and/or sexist slur. It's a blanket term used to excuse failure and breeds complacency when people hide behind it. There was no need to make this argument personal.
newswasboring 7y ago
The difference is baselines and power dynamics. There are many reasons most people cannot negotiate those things in, some don't have any bargaining power (new graduates, people in industries with excess people, or migrant workers), some are not smart/experienced enough to negotiate stuff (again new graduates) and above all not everyone is a lawyer or knowledgeable about how contract language works (legalese is not certainly not English). Nobody should be devoid of basic human decency because a company with a law firm on retainer can use several tactics that a individual cannot.
saiya-jin 7y ago
That's a pure fantasy in most jobs. You either sign a full contract or bye. Unless you are an unicorn that company desperately needs, there are processes, rules, internal politics, inflexible HR and so on. In a small startup, that's more likely but most folks in Europe don't work in startups.

hirako2000 7y ago

While I agree in principle and wish more freedom in Europe, actually even more freedom in the US as well, it's in practice that it fails, especially in certain countries, and always in defavor of the workers. When the capital holders manage to unbalance the relationship with the workers, after failing to rebalance it, politics come into play and rules get voted to protect the workers from certain abuse. I wouldn't say it works well but it limits certain practices that would put the workers in serious troubles. In certain places, we've seen workers working over 60h per week, and not getting compensated enough to meet the ends. So you may say those workers should educate themselves and negociate better, but again it doesn't always work in practice.

newswasboring 7y ago
> educate themselves and negociate better, but again it doesn't always work in practice. I can't believe this is even a debate topic. How do you expect an engineer to compete with a lawyer who has studied it for years and has been practicing it for a while.
- twomoretime 7y ago
  You don't need to be a legal expert to negotiate with your boss if you're an undercompensated employee...
  - newswasboring 7y ago
    1. Lawyers are not just about legality, they are trained negotiators and thinking in contract laws. 2. The manager potentially has/can get negotiation training, you have to pay out of your own pocket for yours. 3. The power dynamic is usually not in your favor, as long as unemployment is above zero in your specific field, it can never be in your favor.
    - twomoretime 7y ago
      Where do you work where all of management consists of lawyers? Even HR usually only keeps lawyers on retainer. The rest shouldn't really be that difficult if you're a competent person. I don't need training to show some combination of 1. I've been productive based on X and Y projects 2. I've saved/generated $X 3. I'm undervalued based on these x salaries or this average value from $reputable_website People treat negotiation like some kind of black magic. If your boss isn't a total asshole it isn't hard to make a case.
      - newswasboring 7y ago
        Only the first point was about lawyers. The points you mentioned are coming from a place of privilege. If it was this easy everyone would have done it. I can say all this and my employer can say "ok go work for them" and then I have to uproot all my life because my visa is tied to my work. This is just one example, and I am not going to give any more because I don't think your are writing in good faith. You are not paying any attention to what life situations are or potential power dynamics.
        twomoretime 7y ago
        > The points you mentioned are coming from a place of privilege The fact that I disagree with you is not evidence of "bad faith." But since you bring up privilege, I think you're just making poor excuses. Your Visa situation does not represent the majority and dismissing every successful negotiation as "privileged" just breeds learned helplessness. If you have authorization to work in the country you live in and you can demonstrate that you're being underpaid, the onus is on you to approach your boss and make a case. You can always start looking for another job if they politely refuse. Or start looking first and come back with offers. This doesn't require any magical privilege. I'm also mildly offended that you believe yourself familiar with my situation. "Privilege" is turning into a racist and/or sexist slur. It's a blanket term used to excuse failure and breeds complacency when people hide behind it. There was no need to make this argument personal.

newswasboring 7y ago

The difference is baselines and power dynamics. There are many reasons most people cannot negotiate those things in, some don't have any bargaining power (new graduates, people in industries with excess people, or migrant workers), some are not smart/experienced enough to negotiate stuff (again new graduates) and above all not everyone is a lawyer or knowledgeable about how contract language works (legalese is not certainly not English). Nobody should be devoid of basic human decency because a company with a law firm on retainer can use several tactics that a individual cannot.

saiya-jin 7y ago

That's a pure fantasy in most jobs. You either sign a full contract or bye. Unless you are an unicorn that company desperately needs, there are processes, rules, internal politics, inflexible HR and so on. In a small startup, that's more likely but most folks in Europe don't work in startups.