5 ms·

Seems odd... To be honest I'm from Belgium and like how layoffs are handled in my country. There is a rulebook with actual legislation behind it. I like that be

by toadi 7y ago

Seems odd... To be honest I'm from Belgium and like how layoffs are handled in my country. There is a rulebook with actual legislation behind it. I like that because it is easy to know for both parties what the expectations are. Mostly you know exactly your severance pay as there are fixed rules for that in your contract. If there are mass layoffs it will trigger other rules. Can't understand the American Freedom thing. So the freedon to chose to be an asshole employer is actually an option there :D

gumby 7y ago
Similar rules apply in the US for larger companies but not small ones.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
perceptronas 7y ago
Expectations are handled when you sign employment contract. You are free to negotiate anything. I live in EU country with similar laws and still employees/employers negotiate additional things which are are not written in the contract (because law forbids it). American freedom - its hard to imagine somebody complaining because the person has more individual choices
- hirako2000 7y ago
  While I agree in principle and wish more freedom in Europe, actually even more freedom in the US as well, it's in practice that it fails, especially in certain countries, and always in defavor of the workers. When the capital holders manage to unbalance the relationship with the workers, after failing to rebalance it, politics come into play and rules get voted to protect the workers from certain abuse. I wouldn't say it works well but it limits certain practices that would put the workers in serious troubles. In certain places, we've seen workers working over 60h per week, and not getting compensated enough to meet the ends. So you may say those workers should educate themselves and negociate better, but again it doesn't always work in practice.
  - newswasboring 7y ago
    > educate themselves and negociate better, but again it doesn't always work in practice. I can't believe this is even a debate topic. How do you expect an engineer to compete with a lawyer who has studied it for years and has been practicing it for a while.
    - twomoretime 7y ago
      You don't need to be a legal expert to negotiate with your boss if you're an undercompensated employee...
      - newswasboring 7y ago
        1. Lawyers are not just about legality, they are trained negotiators and thinking in contract laws. 2. The manager potentially has/can get negotiation training, you have to pay out of your own pocket for yours. 3. The power dynamic is usually not in your favor, as long as unemployment is above zero in your specific field, it can never be in your favor.
        twomoretime 7y ago
        Where do you work where all of management consists of lawyers? Even HR usually only keeps lawyers on retainer. The rest shouldn't really be that difficult if you're a competent person. I don't need training to show some combination of 1. I've been productive based on X and Y projects 2. I've saved/generated $X 3. I'm undervalued based on these x salaries or this average value from $reputable_website People treat negotiation like some kind of black magic. If your boss isn't a total asshole it isn't hard to make a case.
        newswasboring 7y ago
        Only the first point was about lawyers. The points you mentioned are coming from a place of privilege. If it was this easy everyone would have done it. I can say all this and my employer can say "ok go work for them" and then I have to uproot all my life because my visa is tied to my work. This is just one example, and I am not going to give any more because I don't think your are writing in good faith. You are not paying any attention to what life situations are or potential power dynamics.
- newswasboring 7y ago
  The difference is baselines and power dynamics. There are many reasons most people cannot negotiate those things in, some don't have any bargaining power (new graduates, people in industries with excess people, or migrant workers), some are not smart/experienced enough to negotiate stuff (again new graduates) and above all not everyone is a lawyer or knowledgeable about how contract language works (legalese is not certainly not English). Nobody should be devoid of basic human decency because a company with a law firm on retainer can use several tactics that a individual cannot.
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  That's a pure fantasy in most jobs. You either sign a full contract or bye. Unless you are an unicorn that company desperately needs, there are processes, rules, internal politics, inflexible HR and so on. In a small startup, that's more likely but most folks in Europe don't work in startups.
0xy 7y ago
The average wage for software developers in the US is roughly double Belgium. I don't know if you could convince anyone to give up 50% of their pay for I'm guessing 5% or less extra money in severance pay. I wouldn't. Not even for 10% less.
the-dude 7y ago
From a fellow European : yes, in the US firing is much easier. But hiring is much easier too.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > But hiring is much easier too. Largely for that very reason, I believe. If it's hard to get rid of somebody, you will make extra extra extra sure that they are a very good fit.
  - elliekelly 7y ago
    > If it's hard to get rid of somebody, you will make extra extra extra sure that they are a very good fit. Perhaps I'm in the (American) minority but that seems like a win/win to me. As an employer I'd much rather take a bit more time to find the right person and as an employee I'd gladly exchange a slightly slower market for additional job security/a safety net if things don't work out.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      It depends how valuable you are in the labor market. If you are valuable, then you’ll want to be able to gamble a bit and maximize earnings. If you’re not, you’ll want security.
    - luckylion 7y ago
      As an employee, the slower market might mean that you don't get a job, because you're more of a long-term risk. I'm by no means arguing that hire and fire is the best approach, but it makes the market more flexible. So even if you lose your job (less job security), you'll have less trouble finding a new one (less risk).
  - hef19898 7y ago
    In Germany at least, you have zero protection against being fired in the first 6 months, two weeks notice are enough. Same goes for employees wanting to quit. I don't get the "hiring is difficult" part. While I cannot alk about Europe, too many countries with their own legislation, in germany all you need is a contract and proper registration for social security and so on. Let you accountant handle it and it's done in a couple of days tops.
philjohn 7y ago
This. My father was laid off in Belgium after working for the (US) company for 33 years and got an amazing severance package totalling almost 3 years salary. He was planning to take retirement in 3 years anyway, so it just meant he got to take it earlier, with a fully funded final salary pension.

by toadi 7y ago

gumby 7y ago

Similar rules apply in the US for larger companies but not small ones.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

perceptronas 7y ago

Expectations are handled when you sign employment contract. You are free to negotiate anything. I live in EU country with similar laws and still employees/employers negotiate additional things which are are not written in the contract (because law forbids it). American freedom - its hard to imagine somebody complaining because the person has more individual choices

hirako2000 7y ago
While I agree in principle and wish more freedom in Europe, actually even more freedom in the US as well, it's in practice that it fails, especially in certain countries, and always in defavor of the workers. When the capital holders manage to unbalance the relationship with the workers, after failing to rebalance it, politics come into play and rules get voted to protect the workers from certain abuse. I wouldn't say it works well but it limits certain practices that would put the workers in serious troubles. In certain places, we've seen workers working over 60h per week, and not getting compensated enough to meet the ends. So you may say those workers should educate themselves and negociate better, but again it doesn't always work in practice.
- newswasboring 7y ago
  > educate themselves and negociate better, but again it doesn't always work in practice. I can't believe this is even a debate topic. How do you expect an engineer to compete with a lawyer who has studied it for years and has been practicing it for a while.
  - twomoretime 7y ago
    You don't need to be a legal expert to negotiate with your boss if you're an undercompensated employee...
    - newswasboring 7y ago
      1. Lawyers are not just about legality, they are trained negotiators and thinking in contract laws. 2. The manager potentially has/can get negotiation training, you have to pay out of your own pocket for yours. 3. The power dynamic is usually not in your favor, as long as unemployment is above zero in your specific field, it can never be in your favor.
      - twomoretime 7y ago
        Where do you work where all of management consists of lawyers? Even HR usually only keeps lawyers on retainer. The rest shouldn't really be that difficult if you're a competent person. I don't need training to show some combination of 1. I've been productive based on X and Y projects 2. I've saved/generated $X 3. I'm undervalued based on these x salaries or this average value from $reputable_website People treat negotiation like some kind of black magic. If your boss isn't a total asshole it isn't hard to make a case.
        newswasboring 7y ago
        Only the first point was about lawyers. The points you mentioned are coming from a place of privilege. If it was this easy everyone would have done it. I can say all this and my employer can say "ok go work for them" and then I have to uproot all my life because my visa is tied to my work. This is just one example, and I am not going to give any more because I don't think your are writing in good faith. You are not paying any attention to what life situations are or potential power dynamics.
newswasboring 7y ago
The difference is baselines and power dynamics. There are many reasons most people cannot negotiate those things in, some don't have any bargaining power (new graduates, people in industries with excess people, or migrant workers), some are not smart/experienced enough to negotiate stuff (again new graduates) and above all not everyone is a lawyer or knowledgeable about how contract language works (legalese is not certainly not English). Nobody should be devoid of basic human decency because a company with a law firm on retainer can use several tactics that a individual cannot.
saiya-jin 7y ago
That's a pure fantasy in most jobs. You either sign a full contract or bye. Unless you are an unicorn that company desperately needs, there are processes, rules, internal politics, inflexible HR and so on. In a small startup, that's more likely but most folks in Europe don't work in startups.

0xy 7y ago

The average wage for software developers in the US is roughly double Belgium. I don't know if you could convince anyone to give up 50% of their pay for I'm guessing 5% or less extra money in severance pay. I wouldn't. Not even for 10% less.

the-dude 7y ago

From a fellow European : yes, in the US firing is much easier. But hiring is much easier too.

luckylion 7y ago
> But hiring is much easier too. Largely for that very reason, I believe. If it's hard to get rid of somebody, you will make extra extra extra sure that they are a very good fit.
- elliekelly 7y ago
  > If it's hard to get rid of somebody, you will make extra extra extra sure that they are a very good fit. Perhaps I'm in the (American) minority but that seems like a win/win to me. As an employer I'd much rather take a bit more time to find the right person and as an employee I'd gladly exchange a slightly slower market for additional job security/a safety net if things don't work out.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    It depends how valuable you are in the labor market. If you are valuable, then you’ll want to be able to gamble a bit and maximize earnings. If you’re not, you’ll want security.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    As an employee, the slower market might mean that you don't get a job, because you're more of a long-term risk. I'm by no means arguing that hire and fire is the best approach, but it makes the market more flexible. So even if you lose your job (less job security), you'll have less trouble finding a new one (less risk).
- hef19898 7y ago
  In Germany at least, you have zero protection against being fired in the first 6 months, two weeks notice are enough. Same goes for employees wanting to quit. I don't get the "hiring is difficult" part. While I cannot alk about Europe, too many countries with their own legislation, in germany all you need is a contract and proper registration for social security and so on. Let you accountant handle it and it's done in a couple of days tops.

philjohn 7y ago

This. My father was laid off in Belgium after working for the (US) company for 33 years and got an amazing severance package totalling almost 3 years salary. He was planning to take retirement in 3 years anyway, so it just meant he got to take it earlier, with a fully funded final salary pension.