5 ms·

A bit of criticism - it “normalizes” an 8 week severance as a ceiling - maybe in the high flying startup world but any big company especially with long tenure 8

A bit of criticism - it “normalizes” an 8 week severance as a ceiling - maybe in the high flying startup world but any big company especially with long tenure 8 weeks is a pittance, especially to someone having been there for 5 years. May be worth a note. > While it can sound jarring to say “and today is your last day,” it’s generally better for people because it makes it clear that there is a new normal and it starts right now On what basis is this better? You’re opting into socially traumatizing people this way. When you take someone’s badge most people who remain immediately starts to shun the laid off worker. Your respect and trust of them as a person is immediately (rightly) seen as a lie. I’d really like more info on how this is better than allowing people to say their goodbyes.

ryanSrich 7y ago
Agreed that 8 weeks is not generous in any sense, especially for employees that have been at the organization for a year or more. Layoffs are different from performance based firings. My rule of thumb for layoffs is mandatory 3 months + 1 month for each year of service. Someone at the organization for 6 years deserves 6 months of severance if laid off. These are standards you have to build into your financial model. I'm afraid we've been in the crazy world of terribly run startups for too long. When I look at some of the standout startups from 2005-2010 and some from 2011-now, the startups coming out of this recent decade are far less efficient with their cash than their counterparts from the decade before.
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
  Does that model still hold up when there’s company wide layoffs because of financial issues?
- alacombe 7y ago
  8 weeks sounds pretty awesome when a $100-millions company gives you 2 weeks (minimum legal here in Canada)...
  - mattm 7y ago
    It's probably a US thing. Canada has a stronger EI program so the hardship of unemployment is handled by society rather than falling solely on the hands of the employer.
- lmeyerov 7y ago
  You may be coming from a very diff place than most startups In general for startups and if you can afford, max(2mo, 1mo per year). If you are in a slow industry like finance backoffice, good chance many people are 5-15yr and saved vacations, diff ballgame and HN is irrelevant ;-) Collapse is part of the choice of going for startups. But this is all nonsense right now: super hard for many people to get new jobs right now when not an easy FANG fit. So low severance layoffs right now are pretty career impacting FUs. Can't take the COVID SBA loans and apply it to severance, so not easy. Startups are risks anyways, so maybe time to instead take advantage of the chaos and grow instead!
rb808 7y ago
Agreed I've never heard of a 8 week cap either. Actually I thought it was the opposite, if you have WARN act its a 60 day notice period before the severance, its more like 8 weeks is a minimum. https://www.edd.ca.gov/Jobs_and_Training/Layoff_Services_WARN.htm https://www.edd.ca.gov/Jobs_and_Training/Layoff_Services_WAR...
davidu 7y ago
By all means, do more. Many companies thought they would raise in Q3 and have little chance of that now and need to make immediate alternative plans to have a chance to stay in business. If they can pay more — I hope they do. And on the latter point, as I point out, depends on maturity of workforce and leadership. Minor last point — I’m sorry to say that if I’m normalizing eight weeks, then I’m raising the norm. You can not like it, and I don’t, but that’s reality. Eight weeks is generous for a startup, or most companies.
rexarex 7y ago
Agreed, I thought 8 weeks was very low for a lay-off based on what I’ve heard from others.
ShamelessC 7y ago
When you take someone’s badge most people who remain immediately starts to shun the laid off worker. Can you clarify what you mean here? Is this something that happens in your experience? I would personally never want to shun someone who just got laid off, especially if they were a friend. Your respect and trust of them as a person is immediately (rightly) seen as a lie. Am I misunderstanding you here? You're saying that the moment someone gets laid off you are justified in losing all respect for and trust of that person if you're still on the team? I have to believe people aren't that cruel in general.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- taurath 7y ago
  Once you're gone in a company, you're gone - it tends to be that only the closest relationships will stick around, and everyone who you were moderately close with doesn't stick around. I've had people who I've had mutually enjoyable interactions for years suddenly just stop talking entirely upon a layoff. Its in fact pretty common, I'd have to say. > You're saying that the moment someone gets laid off you are justified in losing all respect for and trust of that person if you're still on the team? I have to believe people aren't that cruel in general. Not at all what I meant! I meant the relationship between employee and employer (or manager) turns on a dime, if not only are they told you're laid off, but also immediately all of your badges and access are gone. Suddenly the place you feel like you've belonged is treating you like a trespasser or criminal and not to be trusted to even have door access.

ryanSrich 7y ago

Agreed that 8 weeks is not generous in any sense, especially for employees that have been at the organization for a year or more. Layoffs are different from performance based firings. My rule of thumb for layoffs is mandatory 3 months + 1 month for each year of service. Someone at the organization for 6 years deserves 6 months of severance if laid off. These are standards you have to build into your financial model. I'm afraid we've been in the crazy world of terribly run startups for too long. When I look at some of the standout startups from 2005-2010 and some from 2011-now, the startups coming out of this recent decade are far less efficient with their cash than their counterparts from the decade before.

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
Does that model still hold up when there’s company wide layoffs because of financial issues?
alacombe 7y ago
8 weeks sounds pretty awesome when a $100-millions company gives you 2 weeks (minimum legal here in Canada)...
- mattm 7y ago
  It's probably a US thing. Canada has a stronger EI program so the hardship of unemployment is handled by society rather than falling solely on the hands of the employer.
lmeyerov 7y ago
You may be coming from a very diff place than most startups In general for startups and if you can afford, max(2mo, 1mo per year). If you are in a slow industry like finance backoffice, good chance many people are 5-15yr and saved vacations, diff ballgame and HN is irrelevant ;-) Collapse is part of the choice of going for startups. But this is all nonsense right now: super hard for many people to get new jobs right now when not an easy FANG fit. So low severance layoffs right now are pretty career impacting FUs. Can't take the COVID SBA loans and apply it to severance, so not easy. Startups are risks anyways, so maybe time to instead take advantage of the chaos and grow instead!

rb808 7y ago

Agreed I've never heard of a 8 week cap either. Actually I thought it was the opposite, if you have WARN act its a 60 day notice period before the severance, its more like 8 weeks is a minimum. https://www.edd.ca.gov/Jobs_and_Training/Layoff_Services_WARN.htm https://www.edd.ca.gov/Jobs_and_Training/Layoff_Services_WAR...

davidu 7y ago

By all means, do more. Many companies thought they would raise in Q3 and have little chance of that now and need to make immediate alternative plans to have a chance to stay in business. If they can pay more — I hope they do. And on the latter point, as I point out, depends on maturity of workforce and leadership. Minor last point — I’m sorry to say that if I’m normalizing eight weeks, then I’m raising the norm. You can not like it, and I don’t, but that’s reality. Eight weeks is generous for a startup, or most companies.

rexarex 7y ago

Agreed, I thought 8 weeks was very low for a lay-off based on what I’ve heard from others.

ShamelessC 7y ago

When you take someone’s badge most people who remain immediately starts to shun the laid off worker. Can you clarify what you mean here? Is this something that happens in your experience? I would personally never want to shun someone who just got laid off, especially if they were a friend. Your respect and trust of them as a person is immediately (rightly) seen as a lie. Am I misunderstanding you here? You're saying that the moment someone gets laid off you are justified in losing all respect for and trust of that person if you're still on the team? I have to believe people aren't that cruel in general.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
taurath 7y ago
Once you're gone in a company, you're gone - it tends to be that only the closest relationships will stick around, and everyone who you were moderately close with doesn't stick around. I've had people who I've had mutually enjoyable interactions for years suddenly just stop talking entirely upon a layoff. Its in fact pretty common, I'd have to say. > You're saying that the moment someone gets laid off you are justified in losing all respect for and trust of that person if you're still on the team? I have to believe people aren't that cruel in general. Not at all what I meant! I meant the relationship between employee and employer (or manager) turns on a dime, if not only are they told you're laid off, but also immediately all of your badges and access are gone. Suddenly the place you feel like you've belonged is treating you like a trespasser or criminal and not to be trusted to even have door access.