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Can someone explain what this will translate into in terms of the end-user experience? For one thing, authentication will be next to useless (at least to me) if

Can someone explain what this will translate into in terms of the end-user experience? For one thing, authentication will be next to useless (at least to me) if my phone is still going to ring. So does that mean it's not going to ring for a spoofed number? Also, if it results in tons of voicemail then that's still going to be quite annoying. (How) is the actual end-user experience going to be addressed?

r00fus 7y ago
Maybe I'm missing something but if authentication is allowed, it will allow the client or carrier to block calls based on authenticated ID accurately. RN that's effectively impossible.
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  Yeah I get that, but I'm asking what a user should expect to actually happen by that time, not what a user should expect to be theoretically no longer impossible by that time.
g_p 7y ago
From my understanding, spoofed calls won’t get onto your carrier’a network under this model, let alone ring your phone. All this assumes that sorting out spoofing resolves the problem, which isn’t guaranteed.
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  I thought they still go through to the carrier? Just under a different attestation level: https://www.bandwidth.com/glossary/stir-shaken/ https://www.bandwidth.com/glossary/stir-shaken/
  - g_p 7y ago
    Thanks, that link is a much better overview. It seems the calls will still reach the destination network, and the phone then, but with potential for the operator to signal the likelihood of it being an unwanted or spoofed call. I imagine we will see a tickbox in the operators apps and web settings portals to block or send such calls straight to voicemail (or similar), as they'd be able to be distinguished via the reduced attestation level.
throwaway829 7y ago
> STIR/SHAKEN enables phone companies to verify that the caller ID information transmitted with a call matches the caller’s phone number. Seems to target spoofing. If they can eliminate spoofing it should make tracking down bad actors easier which should ultimately put many of them out of business.
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  I don't think actually tracking down the bad actors is the motivation for this is it? You're still going to be blind to the call behind the originating network; you just won't get attestation as to its identity.
cglong 7y ago
From my understanding, it basically means all telecoms will be required to do what T-Mobile already does in the U.S. If I get a call and the reported Caller ID doesn't match the transmitted one, it reads on my phone as "Scam Likely". Pixels also have their own solution to this: If that condition occurs, the Google Assistant will answer the call and auto-decline if it is actually a robocall.
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  So that means phones will still ring (unless you have a Pixel or something)? That will still drive people crazy!
  - hwbehrens 7y ago
    iOS also has a feature to send unknown calls directly to voicemail without ringing through [0]. It seems an easy jump to classify numbers into three categories (known, unknown but authenticated, and unauthenticated) rather than two once reliable authentication is available. [0]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207099 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207099
  - yellow_lead 7y ago
    Some carriers may have the ability to limit calls to customers based on attestation level. Customer could configure they only want to receive i.e "A" attested calls. This means the carrier from where the call originated knows that the customer who made the call owns the number they dialed from.
    - mehrdadn 7y ago
      Right, but I guess I'm asking, are plans for this in the works? Because currently I'm not aware of anything like this, nor of any plans to implement anything like this. None of the announcements suggest it might be happening either, so that's why I'm lost as to what the end-user experience would be.
      - 7y ago
II2II 7y ago
Presumably it would reduce the amount of fraud. While it may not deter legal nuisance calls, that should make the phone a more reliable communications medium. That's especially true for businesses and government since, with the current state of affairs, it isn't even worth verifying that an incoming call is legitimate. Not to mention that spoofed numbers make targeted attacks possible.
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  Off-topic, but your sentence made me realize a useful difference between "lawful" and "legal". I first read "legal" as "relating to matters of law" rather than "lawful", and then realized you meant the latter. Now I see why the word "lawful" might be used! Regarding your actual reply, though, that basically means we shouldn't really hold our breaths for this to actually stop calls? :\ Just less fraud, which is nice, but from the only thing that makes these calls such a nuisance.
nine_k 7y ago
Fraud becomes harder because unauthorized impersonation of someone else's number becomes illegal and is (hopefully) technically prevented. Because of this, you can just blacklist spammers again, and burner numbers for them become harder to come by.
- ninkendo 7y ago
  This is the correct answer. Forcing all numbers to be authenticated doesn’t stop scammers from calling you, it just makes it easier for you to make an effective blacklist. (A blacklist around which Apple and Google, etc would be wise to make a good UX.)
larrywright 7y ago
The thing this will address is certain classes of scams that rely on spoofing a specific area code. The infamous “Windows support” calls, which generally spoof a Redmond, WA area code. The IRS/FBI/Immigration scam calls that spoof Washington DC area codes. These are scams which defraud people of huge sums of money every year, mostly the elderly and immigrants.
- noahtallen 7y ago
  Most of my spam calls originate from a number close to my area code. Now that I live on the other side of the country, it’s easy to tell when I’m getting a spam call from where I first got my number
- kristofferR 7y ago
  Do people generally know area codes other than their own area?
  - larrywright 7y ago
    At least on my iPhone, for numbers that aren’t in my contacts, it shows the location under the number. I’m assuming based on area code. So it will say Redmond, WA right on the screen.
Nursie 7y ago
This is a first step, make all this stuff able to be traced and authenticated. Step 2 is to start to put the fraudsters in jail, now we can figure out who they are. This also means easier blacklisting for the client.

r00fus 7y ago

Maybe I'm missing something but if authentication is allowed, it will allow the client or carrier to block calls based on authenticated ID accurately. RN that's effectively impossible.

mehrdadn 7y ago
Yeah I get that, but I'm asking what a user should expect to actually happen by that time, not what a user should expect to be theoretically no longer impossible by that time.

g_p 7y ago

From my understanding, spoofed calls won’t get onto your carrier’a network under this model, let alone ring your phone. All this assumes that sorting out spoofing resolves the problem, which isn’t guaranteed.

mehrdadn 7y ago
I thought they still go through to the carrier? Just under a different attestation level: https://www.bandwidth.com/glossary/stir-shaken/ https://www.bandwidth.com/glossary/stir-shaken/
- g_p 7y ago
  Thanks, that link is a much better overview. It seems the calls will still reach the destination network, and the phone then, but with potential for the operator to signal the likelihood of it being an unwanted or spoofed call. I imagine we will see a tickbox in the operators apps and web settings portals to block or send such calls straight to voicemail (or similar), as they'd be able to be distinguished via the reduced attestation level.

throwaway829 7y ago

> STIR/SHAKEN enables phone companies to verify that the caller ID information transmitted with a call matches the caller’s phone number. Seems to target spoofing. If they can eliminate spoofing it should make tracking down bad actors easier which should ultimately put many of them out of business.

mehrdadn 7y ago
I don't think actually tracking down the bad actors is the motivation for this is it? You're still going to be blind to the call behind the originating network; you just won't get attestation as to its identity.

cglong 7y ago

From my understanding, it basically means all telecoms will be required to do what T-Mobile already does in the U.S. If I get a call and the reported Caller ID doesn't match the transmitted one, it reads on my phone as "Scam Likely". Pixels also have their own solution to this: If that condition occurs, the Google Assistant will answer the call and auto-decline if it is actually a robocall.

mehrdadn 7y ago
So that means phones will still ring (unless you have a Pixel or something)? That will still drive people crazy!
- hwbehrens 7y ago
  iOS also has a feature to send unknown calls directly to voicemail without ringing through [0]. It seems an easy jump to classify numbers into three categories (known, unknown but authenticated, and unauthenticated) rather than two once reliable authentication is available. [0]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207099 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207099
- yellow_lead 7y ago
  Some carriers may have the ability to limit calls to customers based on attestation level. Customer could configure they only want to receive i.e "A" attested calls. This means the carrier from where the call originated knows that the customer who made the call owns the number they dialed from.
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    Right, but I guess I'm asking, are plans for this in the works? Because currently I'm not aware of anything like this, nor of any plans to implement anything like this. None of the announcements suggest it might be happening either, so that's why I'm lost as to what the end-user experience would be.
    - 7y ago

II2II 7y ago

Presumably it would reduce the amount of fraud. While it may not deter legal nuisance calls, that should make the phone a more reliable communications medium. That's especially true for businesses and government since, with the current state of affairs, it isn't even worth verifying that an incoming call is legitimate. Not to mention that spoofed numbers make targeted attacks possible.

mehrdadn 7y ago
Off-topic, but your sentence made me realize a useful difference between "lawful" and "legal". I first read "legal" as "relating to matters of law" rather than "lawful", and then realized you meant the latter. Now I see why the word "lawful" might be used! Regarding your actual reply, though, that basically means we shouldn't really hold our breaths for this to actually stop calls? :\ Just less fraud, which is nice, but from the only thing that makes these calls such a nuisance.

nine_k 7y ago

Fraud becomes harder because unauthorized impersonation of someone else's number becomes illegal and is (hopefully) technically prevented. Because of this, you can just blacklist spammers again, and burner numbers for them become harder to come by.

ninkendo 7y ago
This is the correct answer. Forcing all numbers to be authenticated doesn’t stop scammers from calling you, it just makes it easier for you to make an effective blacklist. (A blacklist around which Apple and Google, etc would be wise to make a good UX.)

larrywright 7y ago

The thing this will address is certain classes of scams that rely on spoofing a specific area code. The infamous “Windows support” calls, which generally spoof a Redmond, WA area code. The IRS/FBI/Immigration scam calls that spoof Washington DC area codes. These are scams which defraud people of huge sums of money every year, mostly the elderly and immigrants.

noahtallen 7y ago
Most of my spam calls originate from a number close to my area code. Now that I live on the other side of the country, it’s easy to tell when I’m getting a spam call from where I first got my number
kristofferR 7y ago
Do people generally know area codes other than their own area?
- larrywright 7y ago
  At least on my iPhone, for numbers that aren’t in my contacts, it shows the location under the number. I’m assuming based on area code. So it will say Redmond, WA right on the screen.

Nursie 7y ago

This is a first step, make all this stuff able to be traced and authenticated. Step 2 is to start to put the fraudsters in jail, now we can figure out who they are. This also means easier blacklisting for the client.