6 ms·

I see plastics as our generations asbestos. Analogy isn't perfect, but it's a material we saw as benign that could end up having untold impact on our bodies.

ThomPete 7y ago
Plastic is an amazing product and it is responsible for saving much more lives than it takes. It's important to always think about both the positive and the negative impacts of anything we humans use, not just the negative or positive.
- heymijo 7y ago
  I think this is an excellent comment when taken by itself. As a defensive human however, I think it assumes something about my original comment that is not there.
  - ThomPete 7y ago
    Well I think the analogy is not just not "not perfect" it's very very misleading IMO.
- oldsklgdfth 7y ago
  I don't think you can use a scale to weigh the outcomes of technology, there WILL be positive and negative impacts. It's also useful to think about how a technology changes our culture, way of life and way of thought. There are many positives that can be said about plastics, but it has shifted us into a "throwaway lifestyle", i.e. packaging, containers. Many plastics are used in a very ephemeral manor, which is great if you want to consumerism. But i suspect this obsolescence is baked into plastics.
  - ThomPete 7y ago
    These throwaway lifestyle items is someone elses business, someone elses jobs, someones elses ability to put food on their childrens table. I totally get the "war on plastic" tendencies when you see how it's hurting our oceans but it's very important to separate that which is something that can be fixed with some underlying idea that plastic in itself is a problem. It's not. It's literally right now saving lives through the ability creating single use masks, gloves, medical instruments, part of ventilators and I could go on. We are getting a taste of what the world would look like without consumerism and the use of fossil fuels etc. I don't know about you but I prefer consumerism to what we have now.
    - triceratops 7y ago
      I actually like the non-consumerist, non-fossil-fuel-consuming aspects of our current situation. If it wasn't for the omnipresent dread and social isolation, I'd say things were pretty good. The air is clear, there are people walking outside, CO2 emissions are down.
      - oldsklgdfth 7y ago
        I agree, that are unintended positive consequences. I worry more about the economic impact this will have in the long run. Hopefully, it's a hiccup.
      - ThomPete 7y ago
        You also like the destruction of the economy, the 30% unemployment, the lost retirements, the collapsing mortgage market? If you just think this is a short break before we get back to normal you are in for a rude awakening. This will change everything both for us, our children and their children. Millions of companies are going to go bankrupt and people are going to get poorer which means more people are going to die from this not the least from famine.
        triceratops 7y ago
        I think I already mentioned the specific aspects I liked. But sure go ahead and be outraged about a bunch of things I didn't say. > more people are going to die from this not the least from famine. That didn't happen in the last recession - mortality rates apparently went down overall[1], though suicides were up[2]. And farm work isn't going to stop, so it isn't clear why there would be a famine. Anyway, stay safe and take care. It's obviously a tense time for everyone, and I hope you and your family and friends are all well. 1. https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/576669311/hidden-brain-great-recession-deaths https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/576669311/hidden-brain-great-... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_Great_Recession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_Great_Recession
        ThomPete 7y ago
- beerandt 7y ago
  I completely agree (disposable plastic bags are an underappreciated marvel of both engineering and manufacturing, despite their faults) but exactly the same thing could be said about asbestos. And even the safe uses of asbestos are now (mostly) off-limits because of the taboo.
ip26 7y ago
I'm not sure if asbestos was seen as benign, it always seemed more like a case of an indispensable wonder product to which nothing else came close.
- cycomanic 7y ago
  When I was living in Melbourne I recall reading a story about the asbestos plant in sunshine (suburb of Melbourne). It was talking about how the kids used to play in the mountains of asbestos dust on the property and how on windy days the asbestos would fly through the town and give the impression it was snowing (quite scary to read this with today's knowledge). It was definitely considered harmless for a significant time.
harimau777 7y ago
It seems to me that for applications other than food/beverage containers there's probably not an issue as long as it isn't used to create a throw away product by replacing more durable materials. Synthetic fabrics could be an issue due to micro-plastics; however, unfortunately there just aren't good alternatives for many applications; particularly for vegans. For example, for cold weather gear you basically have synthetics or wool. For rain gear the only non-synthetic options that I can think of are leather, oil-skin, and waxed cotton.

ThomPete 7y ago

Plastic is an amazing product and it is responsible for saving much more lives than it takes. It's important to always think about both the positive and the negative impacts of anything we humans use, not just the negative or positive.

heymijo 7y ago
I think this is an excellent comment when taken by itself. As a defensive human however, I think it assumes something about my original comment that is not there.
- ThomPete 7y ago
  Well I think the analogy is not just not "not perfect" it's very very misleading IMO.
oldsklgdfth 7y ago
I don't think you can use a scale to weigh the outcomes of technology, there WILL be positive and negative impacts. It's also useful to think about how a technology changes our culture, way of life and way of thought. There are many positives that can be said about plastics, but it has shifted us into a "throwaway lifestyle", i.e. packaging, containers. Many plastics are used in a very ephemeral manor, which is great if you want to consumerism. But i suspect this obsolescence is baked into plastics.
- ThomPete 7y ago
  These throwaway lifestyle items is someone elses business, someone elses jobs, someones elses ability to put food on their childrens table. I totally get the "war on plastic" tendencies when you see how it's hurting our oceans but it's very important to separate that which is something that can be fixed with some underlying idea that plastic in itself is a problem. It's not. It's literally right now saving lives through the ability creating single use masks, gloves, medical instruments, part of ventilators and I could go on. We are getting a taste of what the world would look like without consumerism and the use of fossil fuels etc. I don't know about you but I prefer consumerism to what we have now.
  - triceratops 7y ago
    I actually like the non-consumerist, non-fossil-fuel-consuming aspects of our current situation. If it wasn't for the omnipresent dread and social isolation, I'd say things were pretty good. The air is clear, there are people walking outside, CO2 emissions are down.
    - oldsklgdfth 7y ago
      I agree, that are unintended positive consequences. I worry more about the economic impact this will have in the long run. Hopefully, it's a hiccup.
    - ThomPete 7y ago
      You also like the destruction of the economy, the 30% unemployment, the lost retirements, the collapsing mortgage market? If you just think this is a short break before we get back to normal you are in for a rude awakening. This will change everything both for us, our children and their children. Millions of companies are going to go bankrupt and people are going to get poorer which means more people are going to die from this not the least from famine.
      - triceratops 7y ago
        I think I already mentioned the specific aspects I liked. But sure go ahead and be outraged about a bunch of things I didn't say. > more people are going to die from this not the least from famine. That didn't happen in the last recession - mortality rates apparently went down overall[1], though suicides were up[2]. And farm work isn't going to stop, so it isn't clear why there would be a famine. Anyway, stay safe and take care. It's obviously a tense time for everyone, and I hope you and your family and friends are all well. 1. https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/576669311/hidden-brain-great-recession-deaths https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/576669311/hidden-brain-great-... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_Great_Recession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_Great_Recession
        ThomPete 7y ago
beerandt 7y ago
I completely agree (disposable plastic bags are an underappreciated marvel of both engineering and manufacturing, despite their faults) but exactly the same thing could be said about asbestos. And even the safe uses of asbestos are now (mostly) off-limits because of the taboo.

ip26 7y ago

I'm not sure if asbestos was seen as benign, it always seemed more like a case of an indispensable wonder product to which nothing else came close.

cycomanic 7y ago
When I was living in Melbourne I recall reading a story about the asbestos plant in sunshine (suburb of Melbourne). It was talking about how the kids used to play in the mountains of asbestos dust on the property and how on windy days the asbestos would fly through the town and give the impression it was snowing (quite scary to read this with today's knowledge). It was definitely considered harmless for a significant time.

harimau777 7y ago

It seems to me that for applications other than food/beverage containers there's probably not an issue as long as it isn't used to create a throw away product by replacing more durable materials. Synthetic fabrics could be an issue due to micro-plastics; however, unfortunately there just aren't good alternatives for many applications; particularly for vegans. For example, for cold weather gear you basically have synthetics or wool. For rain gear the only non-synthetic options that I can think of are leather, oil-skin, and waxed cotton.