5 ms·

-Immediate shutdown of any location where a worker tests positive for COVID-19. This seems likely to shut down the majority of Whole Foods stores in short orde

by nn35 7y ago

-Immediate shutdown of any location where a worker tests positive for COVID-19. This seems likely to shut down the majority of Whole Foods stores in short order. An unreasonable request, IMO. Grocery stores are genuinely essential to society and the death rate for < 40yo is very small. Put some masks on them and keep working. I do think high-risk employees should basically be allowed to stay home, though.

rocha 7y ago
Hospitalization rate is hovering between 10% and 20% Edit: source https://covidtracking.com/data/ https://covidtracking.com/data/
- p1mrx 7y ago
  What's the hospitalization rate for starvation?
  - rocha 7y ago
    I didn't imply they should shut down. I just wanted to point out that the risk that the workers are taking is significantly higher if you take into account how likely they are to get seriously ill. Their protection should be prioritized.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - travisporter 7y ago
    Disrespectful snide aside, probably 8-10 weeks with water supply, dependent of course on your excess body fat.
- nn35 7y ago
  We don't know the hospitalization rate. That site counts confirmed cases; epidemiologists seem to think total cases are greater by a factor of at least 10x. It also doesn't break out by age group. Taken together, these considerations imply hospitalization rate for < 40yo should be far below the 10-20% figure. (On the flip side, many of the currently infected who have not yet been hospitalized will be hospitalized in the future.) I don't know the hospitalization rate for < 40yo, but the death rate is thought to be around 0.1%. It would be very surprising if the hospitalization rate were more than a couple percent.
  - rocha 7y ago
    You are correct. The estimates are taken from the confirmed cases. I just wanted to point out that it is easy to dismiss the risk service workers are taking if you only look at the fatality rate. The hospitalization rate seems to be one or two orders of magnitude higher. Edit: grammar.
toomuchtodo 7y ago
> I do think high-risk employees should basically be allowed to stay home, though. Employees in states where a shelter in place order is in effect can stay home and collect unemployment backed by the federal government [1]. One might argue everyone is high risk, as you might have a risk factor you're not aware of, leading to an unexpected death. [2] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package-questions-answers.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package... [2] https://www.insider.com/spanish-coach-francisco-garcia-21-dies-after-coronavirus-diagnosis-2020-3 https://www.insider.com/spanish-coach-francisco-garcia-21-di... (A 21-year-old Spanish soccer coach died from the coronavirus after finding out he had undiagnosed leukemia while he was in hospital)
- thanatropism 7y ago
  Are you guaranteed your job back if there's a stay in place order?
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    In the United States, no, but we're working on it. Please excuse the dust.
zzzeek 7y ago
this fails to consider that if an employee of the store tests positive that has an implication for the store itself as well as all the food and products being sold to the public.
- jdc 7y ago
  I think discarding any product said employee could have touched (eg. baked goods) and sanitizing the store would be cheaper than a full shutdown.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    How will you track every product a cashier touched while ringing up customers during a shift? Every product touched while restocking shelves? Every cart touched while collecting them from the parking lot? Will you sanitize the store nightly or weekly? Will you communicate when you do to customers? Will you communicate when the last confirmed case was in your store? How often are workers replacing PPE and is enough available to them (if critical medical staff can't get it, how will you?)? Or are they handling everyone's products and payment methods with the same set of gloves during their entire shift? All important questions.
    - klipt 7y ago
      At this point I assume everything I buy might have coronavirus sitting on the outside packaging. I wipe every item down with a soapy cloth after getting home, wash fruits with soap, reheat meats that are not completely sealed, etc. I think everyone should be doing this, there's no way to track possible infection through the entire supply chain but since the virus dies after some time, inner packages are probably safe if they've been untouched for a while.
- nn35 7y ago
  It does not seem remotely workable to me to shut down every grocery store in America with a positive COVID test among their staff. If you want to argue for less extreme measures, I will probably support them.
- 7y ago
elicash 7y ago
I'd bet that if Amazon agreed to all demands but that one that the workers who organized this would be ECSTATIC. There should be negotiation, back-and-forth. What's frustrating, as somebody not affiliated with the organizing here but has been in similar circumstances, is when the company won't even come to the table to bargain.
- knodi123 7y ago
  > I'd bet that if Amazon agreed to all demands but that one that the workers who organized this would be ECSTATIC. Yeah, except item 1 is "Guaranteed paid leave for all workers who isolate or self-quarantine instead of coming to work." I imagine that if Amazon agreed to that one demand, the workers would be ECSTATIC, because it allows them to get paid whether or not they decide to keep coming to work. I'm not diminishing the seriousness of the pandemic or saying people don't deserve sick leave or allowances for quarantine- but offering unrestricted full pay to everyone who chooses not to come to work is madness. Why would the employees care if the store gets shut down - they can simply stay home. Why would the employees care about sanitation? They can simply stay home. Etc etc etc.
  - elicash 7y ago
    My employer is allowing us to use our paid leave for this purpose, and we haven't seen this. You still only have a limited amount of paid leave per year and so you can use it for this but it means if you get sick later you can't use it for that. Not sure why you added the word "unrestricted." Seems like bad faith.
    - knodi123 7y ago
      > My employer is allowing us to use our paid leave for this purpose It's YOUR paid leave. They are "allowing" you to.... have what they promised you when you took the job. That has nothing to do with the pandemic. > You still only have a limited amount of paid leave per year Then what's the concession? If you have 3 sick days in the bank, and you get coronavirus, then what is the "protection" we're even talking about? > Not sure why you added the word "unrestricted." Because no one mentioned any restrictions. > Seems like bad faith. Sounds like you're about half a step above cussing out a stranger because you disagree with them.
diob 7y ago
If they're essential to society, do you support free medical care for all the employees who get sick during this time? Do you support paying for the ongoing costs of an employee that suffers the rest of their life due to complications or after effects from COVID-19?
- ramshorns 7y ago
  I'm not the person you're responding to, but, yes. People who are sick should be cared for.
- __s 7y ago
  Yes (granted I'm a Canadian who supports countries covering medical expenses for all citizens), but are we also going to close hospitals if any of their employees test positive?
  - diob 7y ago
    Glad to hear it. Of course not, but companies need to be smart about it. Make sure the same people work the same shifts together, that way if one of the employees in a shift tests positive, you can isolate and test the others in the shift while continuing work in the meantime. And of course, for things like grocery stores, focus heavily on pickup versus having customers come into the store.
- alistairSH 7y ago
  Yes. As should everybody else. Lack of health care access in the US is shameful.
  - diob 7y ago
    Definitely agree. We pretend it's an economic issue to have universal health care, but really it would help our economy in so many ways. The only ones it's an economic downer for are the insurance companies.
    - Nevermark 7y ago
ahoy 7y ago
the first rule of negotiation is to set your initial ask high
krtong 7y ago
I just dont know whawt it means. So someone at the store tests positive, okay. Take precautions to ensure workers arent also at risk. Okay. Shut down the whole store and reopen... when?

by nn35 7y ago

rocha 7y ago

Hospitalization rate is hovering between 10% and 20% Edit: source https://covidtracking.com/data/ https://covidtracking.com/data/

p1mrx 7y ago
What's the hospitalization rate for starvation?
- rocha 7y ago
  I didn't imply they should shut down. I just wanted to point out that the risk that the workers are taking is significantly higher if you take into account how likely they are to get seriously ill. Their protection should be prioritized.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- travisporter 7y ago
  Disrespectful snide aside, probably 8-10 weeks with water supply, dependent of course on your excess body fat.
nn35 7y ago
We don't know the hospitalization rate. That site counts confirmed cases; epidemiologists seem to think total cases are greater by a factor of at least 10x. It also doesn't break out by age group. Taken together, these considerations imply hospitalization rate for < 40yo should be far below the 10-20% figure. (On the flip side, many of the currently infected who have not yet been hospitalized will be hospitalized in the future.) I don't know the hospitalization rate for < 40yo, but the death rate is thought to be around 0.1%. It would be very surprising if the hospitalization rate were more than a couple percent.
- rocha 7y ago
  You are correct. The estimates are taken from the confirmed cases. I just wanted to point out that it is easy to dismiss the risk service workers are taking if you only look at the fatality rate. The hospitalization rate seems to be one or two orders of magnitude higher. Edit: grammar.

toomuchtodo 7y ago

> I do think high-risk employees should basically be allowed to stay home, though. Employees in states where a shelter in place order is in effect can stay home and collect unemployment backed by the federal government [1]. One might argue everyone is high risk, as you might have a risk factor you're not aware of, leading to an unexpected death. [2] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package-questions-answers.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package... [2] https://www.insider.com/spanish-coach-francisco-garcia-21-dies-after-coronavirus-diagnosis-2020-3 https://www.insider.com/spanish-coach-francisco-garcia-21-di... (A 21-year-old Spanish soccer coach died from the coronavirus after finding out he had undiagnosed leukemia while he was in hospital)

thanatropism 7y ago
Are you guaranteed your job back if there's a stay in place order?
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  In the United States, no, but we're working on it. Please excuse the dust.

zzzeek 7y ago

this fails to consider that if an employee of the store tests positive that has an implication for the store itself as well as all the food and products being sold to the public.

jdc 7y ago
I think discarding any product said employee could have touched (eg. baked goods) and sanitizing the store would be cheaper than a full shutdown.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  How will you track every product a cashier touched while ringing up customers during a shift? Every product touched while restocking shelves? Every cart touched while collecting them from the parking lot? Will you sanitize the store nightly or weekly? Will you communicate when you do to customers? Will you communicate when the last confirmed case was in your store? How often are workers replacing PPE and is enough available to them (if critical medical staff can't get it, how will you?)? Or are they handling everyone's products and payment methods with the same set of gloves during their entire shift? All important questions.
  - klipt 7y ago
    At this point I assume everything I buy might have coronavirus sitting on the outside packaging. I wipe every item down with a soapy cloth after getting home, wash fruits with soap, reheat meats that are not completely sealed, etc. I think everyone should be doing this, there's no way to track possible infection through the entire supply chain but since the virus dies after some time, inner packages are probably safe if they've been untouched for a while.
nn35 7y ago
It does not seem remotely workable to me to shut down every grocery store in America with a positive COVID test among their staff. If you want to argue for less extreme measures, I will probably support them.
7y ago

elicash 7y ago

I'd bet that if Amazon agreed to all demands but that one that the workers who organized this would be ECSTATIC. There should be negotiation, back-and-forth. What's frustrating, as somebody not affiliated with the organizing here but has been in similar circumstances, is when the company won't even come to the table to bargain.

knodi123 7y ago
> I'd bet that if Amazon agreed to all demands but that one that the workers who organized this would be ECSTATIC. Yeah, except item 1 is "Guaranteed paid leave for all workers who isolate or self-quarantine instead of coming to work." I imagine that if Amazon agreed to that one demand, the workers would be ECSTATIC, because it allows them to get paid whether or not they decide to keep coming to work. I'm not diminishing the seriousness of the pandemic or saying people don't deserve sick leave or allowances for quarantine- but offering unrestricted full pay to everyone who chooses not to come to work is madness. Why would the employees care if the store gets shut down - they can simply stay home. Why would the employees care about sanitation? They can simply stay home. Etc etc etc.
- elicash 7y ago
  My employer is allowing us to use our paid leave for this purpose, and we haven't seen this. You still only have a limited amount of paid leave per year and so you can use it for this but it means if you get sick later you can't use it for that. Not sure why you added the word "unrestricted." Seems like bad faith.
  - knodi123 7y ago
    > My employer is allowing us to use our paid leave for this purpose It's YOUR paid leave. They are "allowing" you to.... have what they promised you when you took the job. That has nothing to do with the pandemic. > You still only have a limited amount of paid leave per year Then what's the concession? If you have 3 sick days in the bank, and you get coronavirus, then what is the "protection" we're even talking about? > Not sure why you added the word "unrestricted." Because no one mentioned any restrictions. > Seems like bad faith. Sounds like you're about half a step above cussing out a stranger because you disagree with them.

diob 7y ago

If they're essential to society, do you support free medical care for all the employees who get sick during this time? Do you support paying for the ongoing costs of an employee that suffers the rest of their life due to complications or after effects from COVID-19?

ramshorns 7y ago
I'm not the person you're responding to, but, yes. People who are sick should be cared for.
__s 7y ago
Yes (granted I'm a Canadian who supports countries covering medical expenses for all citizens), but are we also going to close hospitals if any of their employees test positive?
- diob 7y ago
  Glad to hear it. Of course not, but companies need to be smart about it. Make sure the same people work the same shifts together, that way if one of the employees in a shift tests positive, you can isolate and test the others in the shift while continuing work in the meantime. And of course, for things like grocery stores, focus heavily on pickup versus having customers come into the store.
alistairSH 7y ago
Yes. As should everybody else. Lack of health care access in the US is shameful.
- diob 7y ago
  Definitely agree. We pretend it's an economic issue to have universal health care, but really it would help our economy in so many ways. The only ones it's an economic downer for are the insurance companies.
  - Nevermark 7y ago

ahoy 7y ago

the first rule of negotiation is to set your initial ask high

krtong 7y ago

I just dont know whawt it means. So someone at the store tests positive, okay. Take precautions to ensure workers arent also at risk. Okay. Shut down the whole store and reopen... when?