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Hungary's emergency law 'incompatible with being in EU', say MEPs group

34 points by finphil 7y ago

Proven 7y ago
For most people there's no point in being in the EU to begin with. Hungary should milk the EU as long as they can and then exit.
tester89 7y ago
This is such a joke. France and Germany’s border closures are also against EU rules (against freedom of movement) but noöne cares.
- matthewmacleod 7y ago
  No they aren’t. Border closures are absolutely permitted and accepted under both EU and Schengen rules in emergencies; the current situation qualifies. It’s also absolutely asinine to compare emergency border closures with a very obvious and deliberate authoritarian move of this sort. Please don’t spread misinformation.
  - aivisol 7y ago
    Interesting, I did not know that. I thought that it is allowed to implement border checks within Schengen, but not to close borders completely. Do you know where is that stated/regulated? Does it say for how long it can last?
    - sgift 7y ago
      Article 25: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32016R0399 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A...
      - aivisol 7y ago
        Not sure. The article 25 is "General framework for the temporary reintroduction of border control at internal borders" I cannot find where it says border can be closed. It says "border control" can be reintroduced. There is a reference to 'public health' in Article 8 however: > However, on a non-systematic basis, when carrying out minimum checks on persons enjoying the right of free movement under Union law, border guards may consult national and European databases in order to ensure that such persons do not represent a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat to the internal security, public policy, international relations of the Member States or a threat to the public health. > The consequences of such consultations shall not jeopardise the right of entry of persons enjoying the right of free movement under Union law into the territory of the Member State concerned as laid down in Directive 2004/38/EC. But this says to consult "databases" not apply blanket ban. I am sure there is a law somewhere and our democratically elected EU governments fully follow it (except, maybe Hungary), but just wanted to double check...
  - tester89 7y ago
    Source?
- bakuninsbart 7y ago
  In Germany, there was a protest last week. The only thing enforced by the police was a distance of 2m between protestors. There were also elections in Bavaria, if restricted to mail in. Free speech is alive and well. In Hungary, you can now get jailed for "undermining the government's containment efforts", this includes speech. They dissolved parliament and suspended elections. That comes after destroying the best university of Hungary for being to liberal, destroying the free media, and starting a huge misinformation campaign with a fitting jewish kapparot. It is all completely transparent, Hungary is not a democracy, it is a proto-fascist country in the heart of Europe, and this should not be tolerated.
  - nkkollaw 7y ago
    We have the same laws in Italy. I don't see the big deal. Hungary just gets bad press—along with Poland—because they're not on board with your/Germany's agenda. Sorry!
    - squarefoot 7y ago
      "We have the same laws in Italy. I don't see the big deal." Please don't spread misinformation, our current laws are completely different from what Orban is doing. There indeed are over here some neo fascist leaders who are aiming at destroy our beloved country just like their precursors did nearly a century ago, though luckily they were booted out of the government last year. We're still safe, for now. What Orban is doing is akin to what Hitler and Mussolini did back then, that is, obtaining full unlimited power through democratic means, then use the power to kill those means. That is, no more parliament (this is a common pattern when democracies transition into dictatorships). Now the only way to have him step down is to ask him politely to do so, hoping not to get jailed in the process. If this seems democratic to you, then good luck when they'll do the same over here a few years from now.
      - nkkollaw 7y ago
        I find it laughable that you talk about democracy, and then you praise "booting out of the government" elected politicians you don't like. You're also misinformed about how the Italian Constitution says acts that limit freedoms should be passed which is—not how they're doing that—therefore Hitler. We'll have to wait and see. Let's see if Orban gives back his unlimited powers (might very well not be the case, no idea), and if Italy gives back citizens their freedom. I know that even 20 years after 9/11, the Patriot Act is still in effect, and Americans were not given back the freedoms they took during the emergency.
nkkollaw 7y ago
Maybe they should just leave. Like Italy should after the EU left us alone with dealing with the virus. I live in Poland and I'm waiting for Poland to milk the EU as long as they can, then leave when the economy is on par with Germany.
- j-pb 7y ago
  Poland has always been one of the least appreciative countries in the EU. They profit massively yet constantly vote for right wing parties with strong anti-EU sentiments.
  - abraxas 7y ago
    This has been a thing in the last five years only. Prior to PiS all governments have been both appreciative and enthusiastic about the EU. Please don’t tar all Poles with the PiS brush.
  - sattoshi 7y ago
    The Polish population had a very visceral reaction to the EU attempting to impose anti-Polish measures amid the refugee crisis. Same goes for Hungary.
    - nkkollaw 7y ago
      They saw what happened in other EU countries where guilt-ridden citizens don't have any respect for their own county anymore, and were not looking to repeat their mistakes. The vast majority of immigrants are economic migrants that have no right to ask for political asylum, and were let in by left-wing government who—contrary to popular belief—are now hand-in-hand with big companies rather than looking out for workers, and kept letting them in just to keep salaries low and make their masters happy. Back when I was a kid in Italy I used to pick grapes for something like 15/h, now there are Africans that do it for 4/h and are literally treated like slaves. Very sad.
  - nkkollaw 7y ago
    That's right! Unfortunately (for the EU) they just got our country back, and they're not looking to give it up anytime soon. I hope that they can get as much money as possible and then leave this nightmare once they're in good shape. Not bad, uh? I wish Italy had the same courage. Unfortunately even in the middle of a crisis like this one our spineless PM goes to the EU begging Germany for peanuts.
woodandsteel 7y ago
To deal with the coronavirus crisis, Orban is being granted vastly greater powers than any other EU leader. I can think of no reason for this than he wants to turn Hungary into a full dictatorship. That is certainly the direction he has been heading, in a step-wise fashion, for many years.
- anoncake 7y ago
  I don't see how Hungary is not a dictatorship yet.
  - woodandsteel 7y ago
    Countries rarely move from democracy to dictatorship in one quick step. It is a generally a process over a number of years, and in recent years Orban has moved several large steps in that direction, but has not gotten there yet. With this new action it looks like his feels like he can complete the process.
    - anoncake 7y ago
      What I meant is that the new law completes the process. If Orban can rule like a dictator, that's what he is.

34 points by finphil 7y ago

For most people there's no point in being in the EU to begin with. Hungary should milk the EU as long as they can and then exit.

tester89 7y ago

This is such a joke. France and Germany’s border closures are also against EU rules (against freedom of movement) but noöne cares.

matthewmacleod 7y ago
No they aren’t. Border closures are absolutely permitted and accepted under both EU and Schengen rules in emergencies; the current situation qualifies. It’s also absolutely asinine to compare emergency border closures with a very obvious and deliberate authoritarian move of this sort. Please don’t spread misinformation.
- aivisol 7y ago
  Interesting, I did not know that. I thought that it is allowed to implement border checks within Schengen, but not to close borders completely. Do you know where is that stated/regulated? Does it say for how long it can last?
  - sgift 7y ago
    Article 25: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32016R0399 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A...
    - aivisol 7y ago
      Not sure. The article 25 is "General framework for the temporary reintroduction of border control at internal borders" I cannot find where it says border can be closed. It says "border control" can be reintroduced. There is a reference to 'public health' in Article 8 however: > However, on a non-systematic basis, when carrying out minimum checks on persons enjoying the right of free movement under Union law, border guards may consult national and European databases in order to ensure that such persons do not represent a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat to the internal security, public policy, international relations of the Member States or a threat to the public health. > The consequences of such consultations shall not jeopardise the right of entry of persons enjoying the right of free movement under Union law into the territory of the Member State concerned as laid down in Directive 2004/38/EC. But this says to consult "databases" not apply blanket ban. I am sure there is a law somewhere and our democratically elected EU governments fully follow it (except, maybe Hungary), but just wanted to double check...
- tester89 7y ago
  Source?
bakuninsbart 7y ago
In Germany, there was a protest last week. The only thing enforced by the police was a distance of 2m between protestors. There were also elections in Bavaria, if restricted to mail in. Free speech is alive and well. In Hungary, you can now get jailed for "undermining the government's containment efforts", this includes speech. They dissolved parliament and suspended elections. That comes after destroying the best university of Hungary for being to liberal, destroying the free media, and starting a huge misinformation campaign with a fitting jewish kapparot. It is all completely transparent, Hungary is not a democracy, it is a proto-fascist country in the heart of Europe, and this should not be tolerated.
- nkkollaw 7y ago
  We have the same laws in Italy. I don't see the big deal. Hungary just gets bad press—along with Poland—because they're not on board with your/Germany's agenda. Sorry!
  - squarefoot 7y ago
    "We have the same laws in Italy. I don't see the big deal." Please don't spread misinformation, our current laws are completely different from what Orban is doing. There indeed are over here some neo fascist leaders who are aiming at destroy our beloved country just like their precursors did nearly a century ago, though luckily they were booted out of the government last year. We're still safe, for now. What Orban is doing is akin to what Hitler and Mussolini did back then, that is, obtaining full unlimited power through democratic means, then use the power to kill those means. That is, no more parliament (this is a common pattern when democracies transition into dictatorships). Now the only way to have him step down is to ask him politely to do so, hoping not to get jailed in the process. If this seems democratic to you, then good luck when they'll do the same over here a few years from now.
    - nkkollaw 7y ago
      I find it laughable that you talk about democracy, and then you praise "booting out of the government" elected politicians you don't like. You're also misinformed about how the Italian Constitution says acts that limit freedoms should be passed which is—not how they're doing that—therefore Hitler. We'll have to wait and see. Let's see if Orban gives back his unlimited powers (might very well not be the case, no idea), and if Italy gives back citizens their freedom. I know that even 20 years after 9/11, the Patriot Act is still in effect, and Americans were not given back the freedoms they took during the emergency.

nkkollaw 7y ago

Maybe they should just leave. Like Italy should after the EU left us alone with dealing with the virus. I live in Poland and I'm waiting for Poland to milk the EU as long as they can, then leave when the economy is on par with Germany.

j-pb 7y ago
Poland has always been one of the least appreciative countries in the EU. They profit massively yet constantly vote for right wing parties with strong anti-EU sentiments.
- abraxas 7y ago
  This has been a thing in the last five years only. Prior to PiS all governments have been both appreciative and enthusiastic about the EU. Please don’t tar all Poles with the PiS brush.
- sattoshi 7y ago
  The Polish population had a very visceral reaction to the EU attempting to impose anti-Polish measures amid the refugee crisis. Same goes for Hungary.
  - nkkollaw 7y ago
    They saw what happened in other EU countries where guilt-ridden citizens don't have any respect for their own county anymore, and were not looking to repeat their mistakes. The vast majority of immigrants are economic migrants that have no right to ask for political asylum, and were let in by left-wing government who—contrary to popular belief—are now hand-in-hand with big companies rather than looking out for workers, and kept letting them in just to keep salaries low and make their masters happy. Back when I was a kid in Italy I used to pick grapes for something like 15/h, now there are Africans that do it for 4/h and are literally treated like slaves. Very sad.
- nkkollaw 7y ago
  That's right! Unfortunately (for the EU) they just got our country back, and they're not looking to give it up anytime soon. I hope that they can get as much money as possible and then leave this nightmare once they're in good shape. Not bad, uh? I wish Italy had the same courage. Unfortunately even in the middle of a crisis like this one our spineless PM goes to the EU begging Germany for peanuts.

woodandsteel 7y ago

To deal with the coronavirus crisis, Orban is being granted vastly greater powers than any other EU leader. I can think of no reason for this than he wants to turn Hungary into a full dictatorship. That is certainly the direction he has been heading, in a step-wise fashion, for many years.

anoncake 7y ago
I don't see how Hungary is not a dictatorship yet.
- woodandsteel 7y ago
  Countries rarely move from democracy to dictatorship in one quick step. It is a generally a process over a number of years, and in recent years Orban has moved several large steps in that direction, but has not gotten there yet. With this new action it looks like his feels like he can complete the process.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    What I meant is that the new law completes the process. If Orban can rule like a dictator, that's what he is.