6 ms·

What is profoundly pissing me off are bunch of hipsters on the internet that are using xyz language and are constantly trying to compare everything to C. We are

by stiray 7y ago

What is profoundly pissing me off are bunch of hipsters on the internet that are using xyz language and are constantly trying to compare everything to C. We are faster, we are better, we are more portable, we have JIT, we have reflection... and so on. Who cares what your tool for solving the problem is. Use Java, use JS, use python, go, rust... whatever suits for the task. Why do you want to compare yourself to C. Just stop it. No one with enough expirience in coding will ever care what language you have used to acomplish the task. Unless the task is going to be purely written, slow, buggy, CPU consuming, will have security issues and so on. This can be acomplished with half-baked (I hate the expression, but sorry) coding monkey in any language. Why do you even care about C. It doesnt matter, all that are complaining about it in whatever way possible or compare to it, will probably never be involved in a task where C excels, so why bother? --- jeffdavis: the problem is that people would like to use wrong tool for the job. And the fact that they cant frustrates them, blaming everything else except the fact that they picked the wrong tool. As you need expirience for picking the right tool. A lot of expirience or rather beeing fluent in all the tools. Which makes it a problem if you dont dedicate a lot of time to this. --- jeffdavis #2: > choosing the wrong tool really is a great way to understand your tools and the problem more deeply. YES! Exactly! I did mistakes, a lot of them, like pragma packing the structure and send it to system on other side of network in other endianness. Overwritting EIP number of times before I understood it. Or best one, translating command.com to my language using edit :D Used wrong call convention. But my goal was always to understand assembler. To understand C. To understand C++. And I have made quite a lot of code in all 3. Then learnt any language that crossed my way and it looked like interesting (Rust is still on my list) and used each in at least one project, hobby or not. Now everyone learns one or two languages, without any background knowledge and then starts to preach it, prove that language written in X is faster than language that X is written in and so on. Who cares! It makes me puke.

tux3 7y ago
> all that are complaining about it in whatever way possible or compare to it, will probably never be involved in a task where C excels, so why bother? I don't think that's a fair assumption. You may be underestimating the number of developers who have a need for a systems programming language.
- stiray 7y ago
  Sure, I do. I am just hooking linux kernel calls, I will never take JS for this. Pure C. Valgrind? I have a header with #define MALLOC/FREE/REALLOC/... which returns larger buffer with guards at beginning and the end while after 25 years of C I hardly do anything more problematic that this. But seriously, would you give JS developer making kernel module? Ruby? PHP? No. So I wont compare with them and I would expect they would stop comparing to C. It is not the same task they are made for. I am sick of constant moaning about who is faster and who is better and who is cutter,... System language? Make it. I dont care, if it will work better than C for the task, I will take it. If it is just a newage nonsense wasting resources for the sake of deallocating and taking care about buffer boundaries as it is so hard to take care and track your memory I will skip it. I dont care if I take a hammer or brick for using a nail, I will use what works best and my requirement is that I dont need 20 people to hammer in one nail for the sake of no one getting hurt due to putting its finger between hammer and nail. Someone would rather have a safety inspection. Also a fine decision as far as I care. Not my choice but I couldnt care less. --- Anyway, kids, downvoting me to censor what you cant handle, I am over 40 years old, developing for my whole my life. I have seen hypes, new "revolutionary" ideas, repacking old technologies as new, stealing ideas (I see this lately 24/7) at least 20 new "revolutionary" languages, cpus, mainframes, clouds, any possible way of another human trying to rip you off (google, fb,...), lies, deceit, preaching, evangelism,... Do you really think I will care about it? It is just sorry truth that you will have fun of enjoying kernels written in JS on a browser, on a linux kernel that no one develops any more. Have you seen movie Idiocracy? You really should. I cant wait for it to happen. And then will I ask you if you are sorry, that 20 years back you didnt rather decide to learn instead of copy/pasting and spitting over everything you are unable to handle. (your parent should told you that, but they didnt, I am sorry) ---- saagarjha: sure, ignore the part about censoring, that is not part of debate. About everything else. You get used to it in a same manner as using floats in js. But this is my expirience. It is completely ok, to have different one. Some people are memorizing decks of cards, i consider that something difficult. They probably dont. They have learned to do it. And I am so sorry if dont feel like I need to prove it to you. Anyway, thank you for the cycript.org link, the only problem is that i cant use userspace solution, but it might come handy some day.
munificent 7y ago
> Use Java, use JS, use python, go, rust... whatever suits for the task. A primary factor that determines whether a particular language is suitable for a task is its runtime performance. > constantly trying to compare everything to C. C has little runtime overhead and incredibly mature compilers, so it is an excellent target to use when measuring another language's runtime performance. "Close to C" is simply a synonym for "the language adds little runtime overhead".
jeffdavis 7y ago
The "right tool for the job" is a myth (EDIT: exaggerating; clearly it applies in some cases). Languages don't work together very well, so you need huge, thick boundaries between them, such as serialization/deserialization. Data types don't match up, GCs require special data formats and don't line up with the GCs of other languages, other runtime weirdness, etc. At minimum, you need lots of copying/transformation of the data. Have a gnarly problem in a Python program that Haskell would be perfect for? Too bad. You'll spend more time figuring out how to transform the data and get the Python code to call into Haskell than you'll save by using the right tool. And in the process, the overhead, complexity, and bugs introduced in this process turn the right tool into the wrong tool. And that's the reason why C is so important. It actually does work with pretty much any language, because it has a defined ABI, simple data types, minimal runtime, can work on any data formats unmodified, no GC. Very few languages have this superpower. C++ mostly has that superpower, but some features don't entirely work with unmodified structures (RTTI and virtual functions both require adding magical fields to the class structure). Rust seems to have this superpower (does dynamic dispatch a different way than C++, so can always work on unmodified structures). The JVM is an interesting case and the ecosystem of languages built on it do work better together because they have the exact same runtime (GC, etc.). To summarize: we'd all like to use the right tool for the job. But we can't, except for the languages that go out of their way to make this effective, and that list of languages is very short.
- sseagull 7y ago
  This really needs to be said more. For those of us not in web devel or microservices, the lower level of coupling between components really makes using multiple languages a pain. Plus, you have to learn all those languages -- sometimes I just want to actually get stuff done. I consider it significant code smell when a project has multiple languages, particularly when each language seems tied to a particular developer.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > Rust seems to have this superpower (does dynamic dispatch a different way than C++, so can always work on unmodified structures). This isn't really true.
jeffdavis 7y ago
"people would like to use wrong tool for the job" That's actually a great way to learn. I do that intentionally sometimes to force myself to understand a problem better. Sometimes it even works[1]! I'm half serious here. Clearly when something is important and needs to be timely, choosing the right tool is important. But my comment is not sarcastic, either: choosing the wrong tool really is a great way to understand your tools and the problem more deeply. [1] https://github.com/jeff-davis/postgres-extension.rs https://github.com/jeff-davis/postgres-extension.rs
hermanradtke 7y ago
C is the lingua franca of the programming world. Of course people are going to compare xyz language to C.

by stiray 7y ago

tux3 7y ago

> all that are complaining about it in whatever way possible or compare to it, will probably never be involved in a task where C excels, so why bother? I don't think that's a fair assumption. You may be underestimating the number of developers who have a need for a systems programming language.

stiray 7y ago
Sure, I do. I am just hooking linux kernel calls, I will never take JS for this. Pure C. Valgrind? I have a header with #define MALLOC/FREE/REALLOC/... which returns larger buffer with guards at beginning and the end while after 25 years of C I hardly do anything more problematic that this. But seriously, would you give JS developer making kernel module? Ruby? PHP? No. So I wont compare with them and I would expect they would stop comparing to C. It is not the same task they are made for. I am sick of constant moaning about who is faster and who is better and who is cutter,... System language? Make it. I dont care, if it will work better than C for the task, I will take it. If it is just a newage nonsense wasting resources for the sake of deallocating and taking care about buffer boundaries as it is so hard to take care and track your memory I will skip it. I dont care if I take a hammer or brick for using a nail, I will use what works best and my requirement is that I dont need 20 people to hammer in one nail for the sake of no one getting hurt due to putting its finger between hammer and nail. Someone would rather have a safety inspection. Also a fine decision as far as I care. Not my choice but I couldnt care less. --- Anyway, kids, downvoting me to censor what you cant handle, I am over 40 years old, developing for my whole my life. I have seen hypes, new "revolutionary" ideas, repacking old technologies as new, stealing ideas (I see this lately 24/7) at least 20 new "revolutionary" languages, cpus, mainframes, clouds, any possible way of another human trying to rip you off (google, fb,...), lies, deceit, preaching, evangelism,... Do you really think I will care about it? It is just sorry truth that you will have fun of enjoying kernels written in JS on a browser, on a linux kernel that no one develops any more. Have you seen movie Idiocracy? You really should. I cant wait for it to happen. And then will I ask you if you are sorry, that 20 years back you didnt rather decide to learn instead of copy/pasting and spitting over everything you are unable to handle. (your parent should told you that, but they didnt, I am sorry) ---- saagarjha: sure, ignore the part about censoring, that is not part of debate. About everything else. You get used to it in a same manner as using floats in js. But this is my expirience. It is completely ok, to have different one. Some people are memorizing decks of cards, i consider that something difficult. They probably dont. They have learned to do it. And I am so sorry if dont feel like I need to prove it to you. Anyway, thank you for the cycript.org link, the only problem is that i cant use userspace solution, but it might come handy some day.

munificent 7y ago

> Use Java, use JS, use python, go, rust... whatever suits for the task. A primary factor that determines whether a particular language is suitable for a task is its runtime performance. > constantly trying to compare everything to C. C has little runtime overhead and incredibly mature compilers, so it is an excellent target to use when measuring another language's runtime performance. "Close to C" is simply a synonym for "the language adds little runtime overhead".

jeffdavis 7y ago

The "right tool for the job" is a myth (EDIT: exaggerating; clearly it applies in some cases). Languages don't work together very well, so you need huge, thick boundaries between them, such as serialization/deserialization. Data types don't match up, GCs require special data formats and don't line up with the GCs of other languages, other runtime weirdness, etc. At minimum, you need lots of copying/transformation of the data. Have a gnarly problem in a Python program that Haskell would be perfect for? Too bad. You'll spend more time figuring out how to transform the data and get the Python code to call into Haskell than you'll save by using the right tool. And in the process, the overhead, complexity, and bugs introduced in this process turn the right tool into the wrong tool. And that's the reason why C is so important. It actually does work with pretty much any language, because it has a defined ABI, simple data types, minimal runtime, can work on any data formats unmodified, no GC. Very few languages have this superpower. C++ mostly has that superpower, but some features don't entirely work with unmodified structures (RTTI and virtual functions both require adding magical fields to the class structure). Rust seems to have this superpower (does dynamic dispatch a different way than C++, so can always work on unmodified structures). The JVM is an interesting case and the ecosystem of languages built on it do work better together because they have the exact same runtime (GC, etc.). To summarize: we'd all like to use the right tool for the job. But we can't, except for the languages that go out of their way to make this effective, and that list of languages is very short.

sseagull 7y ago
This really needs to be said more. For those of us not in web devel or microservices, the lower level of coupling between components really makes using multiple languages a pain. Plus, you have to learn all those languages -- sometimes I just want to actually get stuff done. I consider it significant code smell when a project has multiple languages, particularly when each language seems tied to a particular developer.
saagarjha 7y ago
> Rust seems to have this superpower (does dynamic dispatch a different way than C++, so can always work on unmodified structures). This isn't really true.

jeffdavis 7y ago

"people would like to use wrong tool for the job" That's actually a great way to learn. I do that intentionally sometimes to force myself to understand a problem better. Sometimes it even works[1]! I'm half serious here. Clearly when something is important and needs to be timely, choosing the right tool is important. But my comment is not sarcastic, either: choosing the wrong tool really is a great way to understand your tools and the problem more deeply. [1] https://github.com/jeff-davis/postgres-extension.rs https://github.com/jeff-davis/postgres-extension.rs

hermanradtke 7y ago

C is the lingua franca of the programming world. Of course people are going to compare xyz language to C.