8 ms·

You Probably Should Be Wearing a Face Mask If You Can

89 points by miles 7y ago

jandrese 7y ago
At the same time you shouldn't be wearing one because they're a scarce resource and doctors/nurses/first responders need them more. To be fair the article does suggest making your own and then helpfully links to this [1] dead website. [1] https://www.consumer.org.hk/ws_en/news/specials/2020/mask-diy-tips.html https://www.consumer.org.hk/ws_en/news/specials/2020/mask-di... Edit: fixed a typo
- little_dormouse 7y ago
  You can easily make a mask at home. see: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/czechs-get-to-work-making-masks-after-government-decree-coronavirus https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/czechs-get-to-...
  - jandrese 7y ago
    That says people are doing it because the government forced them to, not that it is easy or that they are doing it right. In fact the only tip seems to be to make it out of cotton so you can wash it.
    - m4rtink 7y ago
      And for once I think our government was right in forcing everyone to wear a mask. As it turns out, it is not really hard to comply with something rather drastic like this & the whole nation pretty much equiped itself with hand made masks in a couple days. I went out today in the second biggest city here in Czech Republic and you can see most people with self made cloth masks, a couple with simple single use disposable masks and just a single person with something looking like a respirator. And zero people without a mask.
  - Izkata 7y ago
    I've been considering knitting my own mask(s), but haven't been able to find anything on whether it would actually work - like, would it be too porous to do anything? (Plan was 1-1 ribbing wide enough to not stretch, so the layers would kinda double-up on their own)
    - collinmanderson 7y ago
      Jeremy Howard has done a ton of research. Depending on the material, it's around 50% effective, which is incredible given the current situation. https://twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1242894378441506816 https://twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1242894378441506816
- JadeNB 7y ago
  Not to pick on a typo, but, since it can appear to change meaning: I'm pretty sure you mean that they're a scarce resource, not a scare resource.
- miles 7y ago
  > To be fair the article does suggest making your own and then helpfully links to this [1] dead website. It's been hugged to death. Here is a cached copy: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oC-tOJLl_PgJ:https://www.consumer.org.hk/ws_en/news/specials/2020/mask-diy-tips.html https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oC-tOJ... and here is a direct link to the embedded video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY-29VBkGmw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY-29VBkGmw
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  This. If you're wearing a mask, then there's a healthcare worker somewhere who you're preventing from wearing a mask. That healthcare worker is taking care of patients who definitely have the Cornavirus, and is getting up close to them while they're coughing. They need that mask more than you do. And I don't mean this in an abstract way. There are numerous places accepting mask donations right now. If you have a mask, you should donate it. Stat.
  - rubidium 7y ago
    “ There are numerous places accepting mask donations right now.” Honestly asking where? I haven’t heard of that.
    - advisedwang 7y ago
      https://www.acceleratemed.org/supporting-our-covid-19-response-through-in-kind-giving/ https://www.acceleratemed.org/supporting-our-covid-19-respon... for UW medical center (Seattle)
    - uluyol 7y ago
      An example in Michigan: https://www.uofmhealth.org/news/archive/202003/u-m-asks-community-donate-gear-protect-health-care-workers https://www.uofmhealth.org/news/archive/202003/u-m-asks-comm...
    - neltnerb 7y ago
      I personally arranged to donate several thousand gloves per size from just one lab at MIT. Lots of places have safety glasses outside the medical field, any shop might have boxes of spares laying around.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - collinmanderson 7y ago
      They're even accepting homemade masks: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/business/coronavirus-masks-sewers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/business/coronavirus-mask...
- btrettel 7y ago
  Is it okay if I use masks that I bought years ago? (N95 in my case.) As far as I'm aware there's no way a healthcare worker could get access to the masks I already have.
  - rubidium 7y ago
    Yes. It’s ok for you to use the one you bought yesterday too. But first do what you can to help your neighbors and medical personal.
  - zepearl 7y ago
    I'm wondering the same thing: I bought in 2014 100 chirurgical masks => they're now expired (and I have ~15 left after giving all others to friends and colleagues after warning them about this) but from what I read the statements were that they can still be effective (not anymore 100% but at least more than 0%, which is more than not wearing anything).
  - m4rtink 7y ago
    >As far as I'm aware there's no way a healthcare worker could get access to the masks I already have. AFAIK locally (Czech Republic) hospitals have accepted donations of respirators and even hand made cloth masks. Maybe something similar is possible with hospitals in your are as well ?
  - BryantD 7y ago
    I am not saying that you should keep or donate them, but if you choose to donate them, the Seattle Mask Brigade Page includes a link to other groups organizing mass collection of unused but opened N95 masks. I apologize if you’ve already explored this but I figure it could help others. https://sites.google.com/view/seattle-mask-donations/ https://sites.google.com/view/seattle-mask-donations/
- bagels 7y ago
  Do you feel that if someone has an old construction mask in their garage from years ago that it is not ethical to wear it?
  - TylerE 7y ago
    It may not be effective. Shelf life is usually rated at something like 5 years.
    - orangecat 7y ago
      It's almost certainly better than nothing.
    - angry_octet 7y ago
      And studies have shown only a small decrease in effectiveness of technically expired masks.
    - pmoriarty 7y ago
      It's far from clear how long masks will be effective against SARS-CoV-2 (aka Coronavirus) for. First, when testing their masks for their effectiveness, the manufacturers of these masks were certainly not testing them against SARS-CoV-2, as it didn't exist five years ago. Even now, it's very unlikely any manufacturers are testing their masks against SARS-Cov-2. What they were probably testing them against is various toxic fumes and smoke -- the things they're actually rated to be effective against, not viruses. Second, some filters used in respirator-style masks have charcoal in them, and that charcoal will absorb fumes from the environment while in storage, so depending on what environment a filter is stored in and for how long the charcoal may not be as effective at absorbing various toxic fumes and smoke that these filters were tested for, but for all we know they may still be quite effective against filtering out SARS-CoV-2 viruses. Third, it's well known that some manufacturers put bogus expiration dates on their products, and the products are good well past the expiry date. This is a phenomenon well known in the food industry. I'm not sure how widespread it is among mask manufacturers, but I wouldn't put it past them to also have unreliable expiry dates. The CDC has some guidelines regarding the use of expired masks: [1][2] and they approve of the use of some such expired masks. However, it's not clear what tests they actually used to decide on the suitability of such masks, and if these masks were actually tested against SARS-CoV-2. It is pretty unlikely that they had randomized, double-blind trials of hundreds of people wearing masks and hundreds not and exposing them all to SARS-CoV-2 to see which got infected. Their tests were probably much more imperfect, and so their results less reliable. All in all, there's just too little information to know how effective expired masks are against infection by SARS-CoV-2, but they're probably better than nothing.. especially the ones the CDC has blessed in their research. [1] - https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/release-stockpiled-N95.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/release-stockpiled... [2] - https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/FAQ-N95.aspx https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/FAQ-N95.aspx
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Lukman 7y ago
  This is a wrong and dangerous message and it needs to be stopped. Both things are true: a) health workers need masks and b) people should wear masks when they go out. There are no masks available to the public now. Realistically if you don't already have a mask your only option is to make one, which is not hard. Go to YouTube and find a video. A couple layers of cotton can work and is much better than nothing, at stopping your droplets from spreading if you sneeze or cough. If you already have a mask wear it when you go out. No health care worker wants your mask. Wear goggles too. And yes masks help prevent respiratory infection which is why health care workers wear them. Stop with the "you shouldn't be wearing one" nonsense. It is false and dangerous.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    I live in New York City. I haven't left my building in weeks, but I can see people on the sidewalk outside of my window, and I see other residents of my building in the lobby when I go (briefly!) to pick up laundry and mail. Many of them are wearing surgical masks. Not N95 masks, true, but not home-made masks either. I don't know where they're getting the masks, but clearly they have some. Every time I see this, I honestly kind of want to scream at them. If you want to wrap a piece of fabric around your nose and mouth, by all means, it certainly can't hurt. But if you have a supply of real masks somewhere, you should donate them.
    - SAI_Peregrinus 7y ago
      I keep a box of surgical masks, since I'm one of the weirdos who wears one when sick even in the US! I've got 3. The box is years old, they're expired, they're not sterile any more, and I'll keep re-using them until they fail (the elastic stretches). As desperate as hospitals are these still aren't donatable.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- starpilot 7y ago
  Hospitals are only accepting unopened masks. If yours is already opened, then wear it.
  - collinmanderson 7y ago
    Some hospital networks are even accepting homemade masks. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/business/coronavirus-masks-sewers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/business/coronavirus-mask...
mc32 7y ago
Before we do this, we have to establish a culture of wearing masks during flu season so that there is always enough stock when people "must" wear masks for public health reasons. Right now may not be the best time to tell people they must because that siphons masks from the first responders.
- lend000 7y ago
  When better to establish that long term behavior when there is an immediate, credible threat? Even if it does slightly increase pressure on the medical mask supply (who will be prioritized with the certified masks, regardless), how many lives will this save in the next pandemic? Or every flu season, for that matter. It seems unrealistic to think Americans will start wearing masks everywhere after this has all blown over if they were not previously conditioned to do so.
  - toast0 7y ago
    A better time to establish a mask wearing trend would be a time where masks were readily available, and stores were easily accessed. Let's plan to stock up for this fall.
    - pseudalopex 7y ago
      Czechs are doing it now.
- lucisferre 7y ago
  The article specifically states not to buy/wear N95 masks for that reason and because most people don't know how to wear them properly.
  - bamboozled 7y ago
    They could learn how to right ?
    - 7y ago
jacob019 7y ago
KN95 masks are available from China. Those are an excellent choice for the general population and do not affect the supply of N95 masks to medical personnel. More people need to step and and distribute.
- pstrateman 7y ago
  Are they though?
- ardit33 7y ago
  Like the defective ones that were returned back by Holland? https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-netherlands-recalls-defective-masks-bought-from-china/a-52949216 https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-netherlands-recalls-defect...
  - castratikron 7y ago
    Well obviously not those
    - pstrateman 7y ago
      Without fairly expensive calibration machines you're not going to be able to tell the difference between KN95 compliant and not.
  - azurezyq 7y ago
    Conterfeit and defective items are very general problems throughout all industries. Standard is standard. Importer should do the due diligence to test it and ask for certificates. I just don't see anything wrong with the standard itself.
  - bgee 7y ago
    tl;dr: This is misinfoformation; Netherlands tests masks against the wrong specification and blamed on China. KN95 marks that are bought by the Dutch government are not resistant to oily particles (the N stands for Not resistant to oil)[0]; while the European FFP2 standard specifies the mask has to be able to block oil particles [1]. [0]: http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/433598O/european-standards.pdf http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/433598O/european-standard... [1] “Last Saturday, the first shipment from a Chinese manufacturer was delivered in part. These are masks with a KN95 quality certificate.”: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3077428/netherlands-recalls-600000-face-masks-china-due-low-quality https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3077428/ne... Disclaimer: I'm a China national.
jacquesm 7y ago
A friend of mine is setting up a manufacturing line for masks here in NL. They're sourcing raw materials from abroad, where masks are interdicted but materials are not, and then go on to make the actual masks locally. Super interesting project and I'm proud of him for getting off his butt and making an actual difference here.
- hirundo 7y ago
  interdicted?
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Ah yes, sorry, will fix. Thank you.
ProAm 7y ago
Lets go ahead and save the mask supply for medical personnel. Also this blog is Monday morning arm chair medical advice from a blogger, a respectable blogger, but a blogger nonetheless.
- angry_octet 7y ago
  Exactly, it has no more weight than water cooler talk. In a number of aspects it exhibits wishful thinking that is counter-factual, especially in regard to home-made masks.
jcroll 7y ago
Link for making a mask is broken. Anyone have a good link how to make your own?
zozbot234 7y ago
And if you can't wear a mask for some reason, you should still be covering your face with something. Even a bandana is a lot better than wearing nothing at all.
scythe 7y ago
You should probably consider covering your mouth and nose because: - you don't know if you're infected - if you are infected, even a terrible mask like a handkerchief reduces the risk that you'll spread to someone else You should probably not try to obtain and wear a medical-grade mask if those are in short supply in your region. Source: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762694 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762694 >There are 2 main types of masks used to prevent respiratory infection: surgical masks, sometimes referred to as face masks, and respirators. These masks differ by the type and size of infectious particles they are able to filter. Face masks are used more commonly for respiratory viruses that spread via droplets, which travel short distances and are transmitted by cough or sneeze. Face masks often fit loosely, and prevent the wearer from spreading large sprays and droplets, as well as preventing hand-to-face contact. N95 respirators block 95% of airborne particles. They are tight fitting and prevent inhalation of smaller infectious particles that can spread through the air over long distances after an infected person coughs or sneezes The difference right now is that everyone might be carrying a lethal pathogen that we have no treatments for.
wnissen 7y ago
As it notes in the article, wearing a mask can be bad if it causes you to touch your face more. Though at the moment there has not been a single documented case of "smear" (person to object to person) transmission. And there was a 2.5 hour choir rehearsal with minimal touching that caused 75% of the attendees to become infected. So I have an old N100 respirator from wildfires a couple years ago that I am wearing when out. One of the interesting side effects is that you can smell the ambient ozone when you take it off, since the respirator has been removing it. Don't be fooled, a typical suburban area reeks of ozone, but it's not perceptible because your nose ignores it as background.
- entee 7y ago
  It’s misleading to say there’s no evidence of smear transmission. Take that choral rehearsal you mention. Could have been that they breathed in droplets, also could have been that a droplet found their way to a shirt, the person touched their shirt, touched their face, bingo. The virus is known to survive on surfaces for several hours. In close, confined quarters the answer to smear vs droplet is likely “yes”. Masks are most useful in stopping droplets from people who are actively shedding virus. This is probably the key driver for why in some mask wearing societies transmission is far lower. Masks are clearly helpful in confined spaces and in the immediate radius of someone who coughed a few seconds ago. These conditions are what medical personnel face daily, hence they wear masks. Similarly people like Uber drivers or grocery clerks likely would benefit if well fitted and they don’t touch their face more. Masks are maybe useful when around those who aren’t coughing (you make droplets when you breathe or talk) but generally that social distancing 6ft should cover that. Still, if you don’t touch your face more, it doesn’t hurt and might help a little. Masks aren’t doing a whole lot walking around the street. As you and the article note if a mask makes you touch your face more, it could even be harmful. In almost all of these cases, social distancing and hand washing is likely far more effective than masks. “Are masks useful?” is a complicated question, but as the article suggests, it’s probably, “a little, wash your hands, keep distant, that helps much more.”
- cameldrv 7y ago
  I've never seen a study that says "wearing a mask can be bad if it causes you to touch your face more." I've seen loads of studies that say that masks work to substantially prevent transmission of viruses, including SARS, the closest cousin to the current threat. At this point, articles that say that masks increase COVID transmission that do not cite legitimate scientific studies should be considered disinformation, and their authors should be considered potential threats to public health and shunned and/or ignored. We are dealing with a virus that does not respect lofty rhetoric and does not negotiate. It can only be defeated through clear thinking and science.
savanaly 7y ago
Don't see it linked in this thread yet, but it's worth noting Slate Star Codex looked at the literature and decided on a weak "yes" [0], assuming your use of a face mask isn't depriving a medical worker of one. [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/23/face-masks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/23/face-masks-much-more-t...
huangc10 7y ago
I think the path forward is clear (if there was enough supplies to go around): 1) Stay at home or 2) wear a face mask. If there was enough supply, I don't think we should argue with this. It's for everyone's safety. So let's ramp up supply and do either 1) or 2)
bravura 7y ago
Here is a writeup on the topic that I prefer, from my friend Matt Bell who has been a constant stream of COVID-19 insight on his facebook wall: https://medium.com/@llebttam_45762/masks-work-wear-them-b450ac9f3b7d https://medium.com/@llebttam_45762/masks-work-wear-them-b450... It includes a variety of evidence for masks, including for impromptu masks and their quality. Some key points from my linked article: * You should (like many doctors and care staff) re-use your good quality masks, and the article explains how. (e.g. put it in a breathable bag, like paper, date it, and wait four days) * If you have a good mask, like an N95, wear a lower quality mask over it, to preserve re-use of the good quality mask. * For good fit, the mask should not touch the lips.
seltzered_ 7y ago
Prior (flagged) discussion on a similar topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22706216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22706216
fasteddie31003 7y ago
Yes. I have been promoting this message nonstop for the past few days. I created https://www.maskssavelives.org/ https://www.maskssavelives.org/ to help promote the benefits of mask-wearing in reducing COVID-19' virality.
- starpilot 7y ago
  That's painful to read, it does not address the blatant lack of causality demonstrated in the FT chart with masks / no mask regions. You can't make that claim at all. If masks were that effective, SK and other countries wouldn't have engaged in their massive testing, quarantining programs at all.
  - collinmanderson 7y ago
    It probably wasn't masks alone, but why not throw everything we have at the problem?
Ancalagon 7y ago
Question: is there a recommended way to clean a cotton mask or mask of other material? Does running it through the wash risk contaminating other clothes? Should I instead spray it down with alcohol or wet-and-zap it in the microwave for 30 sec, similar to sponge disinfecting?
- SiNTEx 7y ago
  Washing it in boiling water for 5 minutes should be enough but you should do it at least every day. This is what our government advise us here in Czech.
crispinb 7y ago
On the DIY mask issue: I've tried making a couple, based on online instructions. It's very obvious in use that without literally taping the filter material to my face, the airflow goes around the edges. Anyone who's done any rural polypipe plumbing knows how hard it is to control water flow. Air is harder. None of the DY mask designs I've tried are worth a pinch of the proverbial. Anyone here know of any better designs? I'm not fussed myself (live in the sticks, very easy to avoid people), but I'd like to make something useful for my elderly mother.
- m4rtink 7y ago
  If you have a 3D printer or know someone with one, there are a couple designs that can be 3D printed or the 3D printed parts can be combined with commonly available materials: https://www.prusa3d.com/covid19/ https://www.prusa3d.com/covid19/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/tjmccue/2020/03/24/calling-all-makers-with-3d-printers-join-critical-mission-to-make-face-masks-and-shields-for-2020-healthcare-workers/#1d6bff717500 https://www.forbes.com/sites/tjmccue/2020/03/24/calling-all-... https://onezero.medium.com/people-around-the-world-are-3d-printing-face-shields-to-battle-the-coronavirus-6b44146ca1f3 https://onezero.medium.com/people-around-the-world-are-3d-pr... https://www.dezeen.com/2020/03/29/creality-3d-printed-buckle-face-mask-coronavirus/ https://www.dezeen.com/2020/03/29/creality-3d-printed-buckle... https://3dprintingcenter.net/2020/03/19/scientists-from-the-czech-technical-university-in-prague-are-working-on-protective-masks-3d-printed-on-hp-in-mjf-technology/ https://3dprintingcenter.net/2020/03/19/scientists-from-the-... https://rp95.cz/en/ https://rp95.cz/en/
  - crispinb 7y ago
    Thank you - I'll check them out. (Ironically, the only friend I have with a 3d printer is over the nearby NSW/QLD border that has been closed due to the pandemic crisis. Not an insuperable problem however).
petilon 7y ago
We are thinking about masks wrong. You want every one else to wear a mask because they might have the virus, and if they do, the mask will stop droplets and aerosols from entering the air you breath and landing on surfaces that you may touch. And of course, you should wear a mask too -- to protect others. Had we all worn masks right when this started (simple cloth masks would do) this virus would not have spread so much and so easily.
- benjohnson 7y ago
  The filtering also works in the other direction - when a healthy person wears one and inhales air with contaminated droplets in it.
SiNTEx 7y ago
Wearing a face mask is compulsory here in Czech Republic for a third week now and you can even get fined for not doing so. According to our government this is one of the most important measures introduced to slow down the spread of the virus. Our PM is even trying to convince other EU governments to do the same. People are advised not to touch their face and clean their mask by washing it in boiling water every day. It’s not too complicated and hopefully will be effective.
xkapastel 7y ago
Masks do protect the wearer! And you do not need an N95 mask to do this. Even a simple homemade mask offers some degree of protection. This[0] was a good explanation of both of these ideas. tldr: There is reason to believe that large droplets, not the tiny droplets that N95s are designed to filter, are the primary threat, and any sort of physical barrier between those and your mouth/nose will help. I see a lot of people saying that we shouldn't wear masks in order to preserve the supply for healthcare workers, but I think this is ridiculous. You need a mask when you go out both to protect yourself and to protect others. A better message is, to preserve the supply for healthcare workers, make your own mask, or use a simple dust mask or a rave mask. [0]: https://medium.com/@Cancerwarrior/covid-19-why-we-should-all-wear-masks-there-is-new-scientific-rationale-280e08ceee71 https://medium.com/@Cancerwarrior/covid-19-why-we-should-all...
- entee 7y ago
  Very few viruses are true aerosol transmitted (measles is), it’s likely COVID is droplet based so coarse masks will help. Even with an N95, true aerosols can make it through, though obviously not 100% transmission (95 means block 95% of 0.3 micron particles, individual viruses are a factor of 2-3 smaller usually).

89 points by miles 7y ago

At the same time you shouldn't be wearing one because they're a scarce resource and doctors/nurses/first responders need them more. To be fair the article does suggest making your own and then helpfully links to this [1] dead website. [1] https://www.consumer.org.hk/ws_en/news/specials/2020/mask-diy-tips.html https://www.consumer.org.hk/ws_en/news/specials/2020/mask-di... Edit: fixed a typo

little_dormouse 7y ago
You can easily make a mask at home. see: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/czechs-get-to-work-making-masks-after-government-decree-coronavirus https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/czechs-get-to-...
- jandrese 7y ago
  That says people are doing it because the government forced them to, not that it is easy or that they are doing it right. In fact the only tip seems to be to make it out of cotton so you can wash it.
  - m4rtink 7y ago
    And for once I think our government was right in forcing everyone to wear a mask. As it turns out, it is not really hard to comply with something rather drastic like this & the whole nation pretty much equiped itself with hand made masks in a couple days. I went out today in the second biggest city here in Czech Republic and you can see most people with self made cloth masks, a couple with simple single use disposable masks and just a single person with something looking like a respirator. And zero people without a mask.
- Izkata 7y ago
  I've been considering knitting my own mask(s), but haven't been able to find anything on whether it would actually work - like, would it be too porous to do anything? (Plan was 1-1 ribbing wide enough to not stretch, so the layers would kinda double-up on their own)
  - collinmanderson 7y ago
    Jeremy Howard has done a ton of research. Depending on the material, it's around 50% effective, which is incredible given the current situation. https://twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1242894378441506816 https://twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1242894378441506816
JadeNB 7y ago
Not to pick on a typo, but, since it can appear to change meaning: I'm pretty sure you mean that they're a scarce resource, not a scare resource.
miles 7y ago
> To be fair the article does suggest making your own and then helpfully links to this [1] dead website. It's been hugged to death. Here is a cached copy: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oC-tOJLl_PgJ:https://www.consumer.org.hk/ws_en/news/specials/2020/mask-diy-tips.html https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oC-tOJ... and here is a direct link to the embedded video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY-29VBkGmw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY-29VBkGmw
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
This. If you're wearing a mask, then there's a healthcare worker somewhere who you're preventing from wearing a mask. That healthcare worker is taking care of patients who definitely have the Cornavirus, and is getting up close to them while they're coughing. They need that mask more than you do. And I don't mean this in an abstract way. There are numerous places accepting mask donations right now. If you have a mask, you should donate it. Stat.
- rubidium 7y ago
  “ There are numerous places accepting mask donations right now.” Honestly asking where? I haven’t heard of that.
  - advisedwang 7y ago
    https://www.acceleratemed.org/supporting-our-covid-19-response-through-in-kind-giving/ https://www.acceleratemed.org/supporting-our-covid-19-respon... for UW medical center (Seattle)
  - uluyol 7y ago
    An example in Michigan: https://www.uofmhealth.org/news/archive/202003/u-m-asks-community-donate-gear-protect-health-care-workers https://www.uofmhealth.org/news/archive/202003/u-m-asks-comm...
  - neltnerb 7y ago
    I personally arranged to donate several thousand gloves per size from just one lab at MIT. Lots of places have safety glasses outside the medical field, any shop might have boxes of spares laying around.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - collinmanderson 7y ago
    They're even accepting homemade masks: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/business/coronavirus-masks-sewers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/business/coronavirus-mask...
btrettel 7y ago
Is it okay if I use masks that I bought years ago? (N95 in my case.) As far as I'm aware there's no way a healthcare worker could get access to the masks I already have.
- rubidium 7y ago
  Yes. It’s ok for you to use the one you bought yesterday too. But first do what you can to help your neighbors and medical personal.
- zepearl 7y ago
  I'm wondering the same thing: I bought in 2014 100 chirurgical masks => they're now expired (and I have ~15 left after giving all others to friends and colleagues after warning them about this) but from what I read the statements were that they can still be effective (not anymore 100% but at least more than 0%, which is more than not wearing anything).
- m4rtink 7y ago
  >As far as I'm aware there's no way a healthcare worker could get access to the masks I already have. AFAIK locally (Czech Republic) hospitals have accepted donations of respirators and even hand made cloth masks. Maybe something similar is possible with hospitals in your are as well ?
- BryantD 7y ago
  I am not saying that you should keep or donate them, but if you choose to donate them, the Seattle Mask Brigade Page includes a link to other groups organizing mass collection of unused but opened N95 masks. I apologize if you’ve already explored this but I figure it could help others. https://sites.google.com/view/seattle-mask-donations/ https://sites.google.com/view/seattle-mask-donations/
bagels 7y ago
Do you feel that if someone has an old construction mask in their garage from years ago that it is not ethical to wear it?
- TylerE 7y ago
  It may not be effective. Shelf life is usually rated at something like 5 years.
  - orangecat 7y ago
    It's almost certainly better than nothing.
  - angry_octet 7y ago
    And studies have shown only a small decrease in effectiveness of technically expired masks.
  - pmoriarty 7y ago
    It's far from clear how long masks will be effective against SARS-CoV-2 (aka Coronavirus) for. First, when testing their masks for their effectiveness, the manufacturers of these masks were certainly not testing them against SARS-CoV-2, as it didn't exist five years ago. Even now, it's very unlikely any manufacturers are testing their masks against SARS-Cov-2. What they were probably testing them against is various toxic fumes and smoke -- the things they're actually rated to be effective against, not viruses. Second, some filters used in respirator-style masks have charcoal in them, and that charcoal will absorb fumes from the environment while in storage, so depending on what environment a filter is stored in and for how long the charcoal may not be as effective at absorbing various toxic fumes and smoke that these filters were tested for, but for all we know they may still be quite effective against filtering out SARS-CoV-2 viruses. Third, it's well known that some manufacturers put bogus expiration dates on their products, and the products are good well past the expiry date. This is a phenomenon well known in the food industry. I'm not sure how widespread it is among mask manufacturers, but I wouldn't put it past them to also have unreliable expiry dates. The CDC has some guidelines regarding the use of expired masks: [1][2] and they approve of the use of some such expired masks. However, it's not clear what tests they actually used to decide on the suitability of such masks, and if these masks were actually tested against SARS-CoV-2. It is pretty unlikely that they had randomized, double-blind trials of hundreds of people wearing masks and hundreds not and exposing them all to SARS-CoV-2 to see which got infected. Their tests were probably much more imperfect, and so their results less reliable. All in all, there's just too little information to know how effective expired masks are against infection by SARS-CoV-2, but they're probably better than nothing.. especially the ones the CDC has blessed in their research. [1] - https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/release-stockpiled-N95.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/release-stockpiled... [2] - https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/FAQ-N95.aspx https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/FAQ-N95.aspx
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Lukman 7y ago
This is a wrong and dangerous message and it needs to be stopped. Both things are true: a) health workers need masks and b) people should wear masks when they go out. There are no masks available to the public now. Realistically if you don't already have a mask your only option is to make one, which is not hard. Go to YouTube and find a video. A couple layers of cotton can work and is much better than nothing, at stopping your droplets from spreading if you sneeze or cough. If you already have a mask wear it when you go out. No health care worker wants your mask. Wear goggles too. And yes masks help prevent respiratory infection which is why health care workers wear them. Stop with the "you shouldn't be wearing one" nonsense. It is false and dangerous.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  I live in New York City. I haven't left my building in weeks, but I can see people on the sidewalk outside of my window, and I see other residents of my building in the lobby when I go (briefly!) to pick up laundry and mail. Many of them are wearing surgical masks. Not N95 masks, true, but not home-made masks either. I don't know where they're getting the masks, but clearly they have some. Every time I see this, I honestly kind of want to scream at them. If you want to wrap a piece of fabric around your nose and mouth, by all means, it certainly can't hurt. But if you have a supply of real masks somewhere, you should donate them.
  - SAI_Peregrinus 7y ago
    I keep a box of surgical masks, since I'm one of the weirdos who wears one when sick even in the US! I've got 3. The box is years old, they're expired, they're not sterile any more, and I'll keep re-using them until they fail (the elastic stretches). As desperate as hospitals are these still aren't donatable.
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starpilot 7y ago
Hospitals are only accepting unopened masks. If yours is already opened, then wear it.
- collinmanderson 7y ago
  Some hospital networks are even accepting homemade masks. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/business/coronavirus-masks-sewers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/business/coronavirus-mask...

mc32 7y ago

Before we do this, we have to establish a culture of wearing masks during flu season so that there is always enough stock when people "must" wear masks for public health reasons. Right now may not be the best time to tell people they must because that siphons masks from the first responders.

lend000 7y ago
When better to establish that long term behavior when there is an immediate, credible threat? Even if it does slightly increase pressure on the medical mask supply (who will be prioritized with the certified masks, regardless), how many lives will this save in the next pandemic? Or every flu season, for that matter. It seems unrealistic to think Americans will start wearing masks everywhere after this has all blown over if they were not previously conditioned to do so.
- toast0 7y ago
  A better time to establish a mask wearing trend would be a time where masks were readily available, and stores were easily accessed. Let's plan to stock up for this fall.
  - pseudalopex 7y ago
    Czechs are doing it now.
lucisferre 7y ago
The article specifically states not to buy/wear N95 masks for that reason and because most people don't know how to wear them properly.
- bamboozled 7y ago
  They could learn how to right ?
  - 7y ago

jacob019 7y ago

KN95 masks are available from China. Those are an excellent choice for the general population and do not affect the supply of N95 masks to medical personnel. More people need to step and and distribute.

pstrateman 7y ago
Are they though?
ardit33 7y ago
Like the defective ones that were returned back by Holland? https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-netherlands-recalls-defective-masks-bought-from-china/a-52949216 https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-netherlands-recalls-defect...
- castratikron 7y ago
  Well obviously not those
  - pstrateman 7y ago
    Without fairly expensive calibration machines you're not going to be able to tell the difference between KN95 compliant and not.
- azurezyq 7y ago
  Conterfeit and defective items are very general problems throughout all industries. Standard is standard. Importer should do the due diligence to test it and ask for certificates. I just don't see anything wrong with the standard itself.
- bgee 7y ago
  tl;dr: This is misinfoformation; Netherlands tests masks against the wrong specification and blamed on China. KN95 marks that are bought by the Dutch government are not resistant to oily particles (the N stands for Not resistant to oil)[0]; while the European FFP2 standard specifies the mask has to be able to block oil particles [1]. [0]: http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/433598O/european-standards.pdf http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/433598O/european-standard... [1] “Last Saturday, the first shipment from a Chinese manufacturer was delivered in part. These are masks with a KN95 quality certificate.”: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3077428/netherlands-recalls-600000-face-masks-china-due-low-quality https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3077428/ne... Disclaimer: I'm a China national.

jacquesm 7y ago

A friend of mine is setting up a manufacturing line for masks here in NL. They're sourcing raw materials from abroad, where masks are interdicted but materials are not, and then go on to make the actual masks locally. Super interesting project and I'm proud of him for getting off his butt and making an actual difference here.

hirundo 7y ago
interdicted?
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Ah yes, sorry, will fix. Thank you.

ProAm 7y ago

Lets go ahead and save the mask supply for medical personnel. Also this blog is Monday morning arm chair medical advice from a blogger, a respectable blogger, but a blogger nonetheless.

angry_octet 7y ago
Exactly, it has no more weight than water cooler talk. In a number of aspects it exhibits wishful thinking that is counter-factual, especially in regard to home-made masks.

jcroll 7y ago

Link for making a mask is broken. Anyone have a good link how to make your own?

zozbot234 7y ago

And if you can't wear a mask for some reason, you should still be covering your face with something. Even a bandana is a lot better than wearing nothing at all.

scythe 7y ago

You should probably consider covering your mouth and nose because: - you don't know if you're infected - if you are infected, even a terrible mask like a handkerchief reduces the risk that you'll spread to someone else You should probably not try to obtain and wear a medical-grade mask if those are in short supply in your region. Source: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762694 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762694 >There are 2 main types of masks used to prevent respiratory infection: surgical masks, sometimes referred to as face masks, and respirators. These masks differ by the type and size of infectious particles they are able to filter. Face masks are used more commonly for respiratory viruses that spread via droplets, which travel short distances and are transmitted by cough or sneeze. Face masks often fit loosely, and prevent the wearer from spreading large sprays and droplets, as well as preventing hand-to-face contact. N95 respirators block 95% of airborne particles. They are tight fitting and prevent inhalation of smaller infectious particles that can spread through the air over long distances after an infected person coughs or sneezes The difference right now is that everyone might be carrying a lethal pathogen that we have no treatments for.

wnissen 7y ago

As it notes in the article, wearing a mask can be bad if it causes you to touch your face more. Though at the moment there has not been a single documented case of "smear" (person to object to person) transmission. And there was a 2.5 hour choir rehearsal with minimal touching that caused 75% of the attendees to become infected. So I have an old N100 respirator from wildfires a couple years ago that I am wearing when out. One of the interesting side effects is that you can smell the ambient ozone when you take it off, since the respirator has been removing it. Don't be fooled, a typical suburban area reeks of ozone, but it's not perceptible because your nose ignores it as background.

entee 7y ago
It’s misleading to say there’s no evidence of smear transmission. Take that choral rehearsal you mention. Could have been that they breathed in droplets, also could have been that a droplet found their way to a shirt, the person touched their shirt, touched their face, bingo. The virus is known to survive on surfaces for several hours. In close, confined quarters the answer to smear vs droplet is likely “yes”. Masks are most useful in stopping droplets from people who are actively shedding virus. This is probably the key driver for why in some mask wearing societies transmission is far lower. Masks are clearly helpful in confined spaces and in the immediate radius of someone who coughed a few seconds ago. These conditions are what medical personnel face daily, hence they wear masks. Similarly people like Uber drivers or grocery clerks likely would benefit if well fitted and they don’t touch their face more. Masks are maybe useful when around those who aren’t coughing (you make droplets when you breathe or talk) but generally that social distancing 6ft should cover that. Still, if you don’t touch your face more, it doesn’t hurt and might help a little. Masks aren’t doing a whole lot walking around the street. As you and the article note if a mask makes you touch your face more, it could even be harmful. In almost all of these cases, social distancing and hand washing is likely far more effective than masks. “Are masks useful?” is a complicated question, but as the article suggests, it’s probably, “a little, wash your hands, keep distant, that helps much more.”
cameldrv 7y ago
I've never seen a study that says "wearing a mask can be bad if it causes you to touch your face more." I've seen loads of studies that say that masks work to substantially prevent transmission of viruses, including SARS, the closest cousin to the current threat. At this point, articles that say that masks increase COVID transmission that do not cite legitimate scientific studies should be considered disinformation, and their authors should be considered potential threats to public health and shunned and/or ignored. We are dealing with a virus that does not respect lofty rhetoric and does not negotiate. It can only be defeated through clear thinking and science.

savanaly 7y ago

Don't see it linked in this thread yet, but it's worth noting Slate Star Codex looked at the literature and decided on a weak "yes" [0], assuming your use of a face mask isn't depriving a medical worker of one. [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/23/face-masks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/23/face-masks-much-more-t...

huangc10 7y ago

I think the path forward is clear (if there was enough supplies to go around): 1) Stay at home or 2) wear a face mask. If there was enough supply, I don't think we should argue with this. It's for everyone's safety. So let's ramp up supply and do either 1) or 2)

bravura 7y ago

Here is a writeup on the topic that I prefer, from my friend Matt Bell who has been a constant stream of COVID-19 insight on his facebook wall: https://medium.com/@llebttam_45762/masks-work-wear-them-b450ac9f3b7d https://medium.com/@llebttam_45762/masks-work-wear-them-b450... It includes a variety of evidence for masks, including for impromptu masks and their quality. Some key points from my linked article: * You should (like many doctors and care staff) re-use your good quality masks, and the article explains how. (e.g. put it in a breathable bag, like paper, date it, and wait four days) * If you have a good mask, like an N95, wear a lower quality mask over it, to preserve re-use of the good quality mask. * For good fit, the mask should not touch the lips.

seltzered_ 7y ago

Prior (flagged) discussion on a similar topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22706216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22706216

fasteddie31003 7y ago

Yes. I have been promoting this message nonstop for the past few days. I created https://www.maskssavelives.org/ https://www.maskssavelives.org/ to help promote the benefits of mask-wearing in reducing COVID-19' virality.

starpilot 7y ago
That's painful to read, it does not address the blatant lack of causality demonstrated in the FT chart with masks / no mask regions. You can't make that claim at all. If masks were that effective, SK and other countries wouldn't have engaged in their massive testing, quarantining programs at all.
- collinmanderson 7y ago
  It probably wasn't masks alone, but why not throw everything we have at the problem?

Ancalagon 7y ago

Question: is there a recommended way to clean a cotton mask or mask of other material? Does running it through the wash risk contaminating other clothes? Should I instead spray it down with alcohol or wet-and-zap it in the microwave for 30 sec, similar to sponge disinfecting?

SiNTEx 7y ago
Washing it in boiling water for 5 minutes should be enough but you should do it at least every day. This is what our government advise us here in Czech.

crispinb 7y ago

On the DIY mask issue: I've tried making a couple, based on online instructions. It's very obvious in use that without literally taping the filter material to my face, the airflow goes around the edges. Anyone who's done any rural polypipe plumbing knows how hard it is to control water flow. Air is harder. None of the DY mask designs I've tried are worth a pinch of the proverbial. Anyone here know of any better designs? I'm not fussed myself (live in the sticks, very easy to avoid people), but I'd like to make something useful for my elderly mother.

m4rtink 7y ago
If you have a 3D printer or know someone with one, there are a couple designs that can be 3D printed or the 3D printed parts can be combined with commonly available materials: https://www.prusa3d.com/covid19/ https://www.prusa3d.com/covid19/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/tjmccue/2020/03/24/calling-all-makers-with-3d-printers-join-critical-mission-to-make-face-masks-and-shields-for-2020-healthcare-workers/#1d6bff717500 https://www.forbes.com/sites/tjmccue/2020/03/24/calling-all-... https://onezero.medium.com/people-around-the-world-are-3d-printing-face-shields-to-battle-the-coronavirus-6b44146ca1f3 https://onezero.medium.com/people-around-the-world-are-3d-pr... https://www.dezeen.com/2020/03/29/creality-3d-printed-buckle-face-mask-coronavirus/ https://www.dezeen.com/2020/03/29/creality-3d-printed-buckle... https://3dprintingcenter.net/2020/03/19/scientists-from-the-czech-technical-university-in-prague-are-working-on-protective-masks-3d-printed-on-hp-in-mjf-technology/ https://3dprintingcenter.net/2020/03/19/scientists-from-the-... https://rp95.cz/en/ https://rp95.cz/en/
- crispinb 7y ago
  Thank you - I'll check them out. (Ironically, the only friend I have with a 3d printer is over the nearby NSW/QLD border that has been closed due to the pandemic crisis. Not an insuperable problem however).

petilon 7y ago

We are thinking about masks wrong. You want every one else to wear a mask because they might have the virus, and if they do, the mask will stop droplets and aerosols from entering the air you breath and landing on surfaces that you may touch. And of course, you should wear a mask too -- to protect others. Had we all worn masks right when this started (simple cloth masks would do) this virus would not have spread so much and so easily.

benjohnson 7y ago
The filtering also works in the other direction - when a healthy person wears one and inhales air with contaminated droplets in it.

SiNTEx 7y ago

Wearing a face mask is compulsory here in Czech Republic for a third week now and you can even get fined for not doing so. According to our government this is one of the most important measures introduced to slow down the spread of the virus. Our PM is even trying to convince other EU governments to do the same. People are advised not to touch their face and clean their mask by washing it in boiling water every day. It’s not too complicated and hopefully will be effective.

xkapastel 7y ago

Masks do protect the wearer! And you do not need an N95 mask to do this. Even a simple homemade mask offers some degree of protection. This[0] was a good explanation of both of these ideas. tldr: There is reason to believe that large droplets, not the tiny droplets that N95s are designed to filter, are the primary threat, and any sort of physical barrier between those and your mouth/nose will help. I see a lot of people saying that we shouldn't wear masks in order to preserve the supply for healthcare workers, but I think this is ridiculous. You need a mask when you go out both to protect yourself and to protect others. A better message is, to preserve the supply for healthcare workers, make your own mask, or use a simple dust mask or a rave mask. [0]: https://medium.com/@Cancerwarrior/covid-19-why-we-should-all-wear-masks-there-is-new-scientific-rationale-280e08ceee71 https://medium.com/@Cancerwarrior/covid-19-why-we-should-all...

entee 7y ago
Very few viruses are true aerosol transmitted (measles is), it’s likely COVID is droplet based so coarse masks will help. Even with an N95, true aerosols can make it through, though obviously not 100% transmission (95 means block 95% of 0.3 micron particles, individual viruses are a factor of 2-3 smaller usually).