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The real fallback for lack of ventilator machines is the use of the bag valve mask. This is a manually operated device, no motors or electronics. https://en.wi

The real fallback for lack of ventilator machines is the use of the bag valve mask. This is a manually operated device, no motors or electronics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_valve_mask https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_valve_mask I have to assume this is more reliable than whatever somebody hacked together in their garage. Your average builder may be able to make something that works OK in testing, but having it work 24/7 by people unfamiliar with its quirks is a different matter entirely. The official word out of New York is that they are going to use bag valve masks when they run out of ventilators and train people how to squeeze the bag.

rabboRubble 7y ago
My understanding is that squeezing the bag would have a high risk of covid infection. The only way this solution would help the curve is if covid survivors were doing the squeeze.
bayesian_horse 7y ago
The proposed system uses exactly such a thing. But a mask doesn't work because you want to put pressure into the lungs, not inflate the cheeks. Masks only work temporarily to assist a patient that is still breathing relatively well on his own. And there is nothing technically preventing the use of those bags right now. But you'd have to have one person standing beside each bed, 24 hours a day. Which means a hell of a lot of foot traffic, and those will get infected with a high probability. They also need to be trained to a minimal standard. It's not practical.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  Masks do and can increase pressure in lungs, the reason intubation is used is to provide fluid drainage, prevent choking. So that the critical patient does not drown. Other than that, they're equivalent. Cheeks can puff out only so far.
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    I have never used masks that way and I would worry about the fit. But it may be possible, temporarily, especially when you hold it down. Procedurally most physicians seem to reach for the intubator as soon as there is any trouble breathing, even though that takes longer than putting on a mask.

rabboRubble 7y ago

My understanding is that squeezing the bag would have a high risk of covid infection. The only way this solution would help the curve is if covid survivors were doing the squeeze.

bayesian_horse 7y ago

The proposed system uses exactly such a thing. But a mask doesn't work because you want to put pressure into the lungs, not inflate the cheeks. Masks only work temporarily to assist a patient that is still breathing relatively well on his own. And there is nothing technically preventing the use of those bags right now. But you'd have to have one person standing beside each bed, 24 hours a day. Which means a hell of a lot of foot traffic, and those will get infected with a high probability. They also need to be trained to a minimal standard. It's not practical.

AstralStorm 7y ago
Masks do and can increase pressure in lungs, the reason intubation is used is to provide fluid drainage, prevent choking. So that the critical patient does not drown. Other than that, they're equivalent. Cheeks can puff out only so far.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  I have never used masks that way and I would worry about the fit. But it may be possible, temporarily, especially when you hold it down. Procedurally most physicians seem to reach for the intubator as soon as there is any trouble breathing, even though that takes longer than putting on a mask.