4 ms·

I thought the World Health Organization said that masks don’t work. Why would they have said that if the opposite is true?

nerdponx 7y ago
Seems like they would, based on their recent track record.
tokamak-teapot 7y ago
Not quite, but it's certainly been confusing advice, if you can call it advice at all: https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/03/11/whos-confusing-guidance-masks-covid-19-epidemic/ https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/03/11/whos-confusing-guidance...
- addHocker 7y ago
  Taiwans CDC and South Korea recommend masks. That is good enough for me.
mensetmanusman 7y ago
It was mostly an effort to prevent panic buying like what happened with toilet paper. There are not enough masks produced even in a year to solve this, so they. Need to focus on medical workers having access.
- drcode 7y ago
  You left out the word "lied"
  - nxc18 7y ago
    There’s a big difference between a nuanced message and a lie. If you see The WHO statements as a lie, you lack the understanding of the situation needed to make a thoughtful decision, and it’s for the best that you were misled. People who read the news and get “masks don’t work” out of it should not be using masks until there are enough available for professionals who need them.
    - drcode 7y ago
      If there are tons of studies showing that homemade masks prevent virus spread, almost no evidence to the contrary, and they tell people not to wear even homemade masks, I don't know what else to call it but "lying". How about I meet you half way and call it an "incompetent noble lie". https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4pt4oFDBhsC_jpblXpNtQ/mobilebasic?fbclid=IwAR2McCdT07fPQfCwnSWkv1cw3zIlndMiAsU45iOmBv9fZ75L7fuhdoxlFnc https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4p...
      - nxc18 7y ago
        Can you please point to where WHO is saying people shouldn’t use homemade masks? I’ve never seen that claim, but if it’s true it indeed doesn’t make sense. I’ve only seen CDC dissuade people from using surgical and N95 masks. Perhaps there’s concern that if CDC or others advise people to use homemade masks, people who actually do need N95 masks (e.g. severely immunocompromised) will think that works for them? Edit: there’s also the moral hazard aspect to consider: if people think wearing homemade masks is enough to protect them, they’re probably a lot more likely to ignore quarantine or social distancing. If the masks aren’t 100% effective and are used wrong, that could be worse than just staying in and social distancing.
        drcode 7y ago
        "You should only wear a mask if a healthcare professional recommends it." A blanket statement against all types of masks without qualification. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html
        collinmanderson 7y ago
        Right, the CDC FAQ seems to say don't wear masks. However the CDC also says if you "think you might have COVID-19", you should "wear a facemask" "to help protect other people in your home and community." "You may need to improvise a facemask using a scarf or bandana." https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/if-you-are-sick/steps-when-sick.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/if-you-are-sick/st... Seems to me we should all assume we "might have COVID-19" and therefore follow CDC's advice: wear a facemask of some kind to protect other people.
  - Symmetry 7y ago
    From hearing nurse aquaintances talk on Facebook, listening to This Week in Virology, etc it seems that the idea that surgical masks don't protect you from getting sick is very pervasive in the western medical community. And from a medical community standpoint it's true! If you're working with sick people every day and just use a surgical mask you'll probably get sick eventually. But in the game of telephone that is horizontal knowledge transfer "Surgical masks are generally insufficient for consistent protection in a medical setting" becomes "surgical masks don't work" and then becomes "a surgical mask won't protect you when you're going to buy groceries."
burlesona 7y ago
I didn’t think they said masks don’t work, but rather: a. Masks mostly help people who are infected to not spread it widely (by catching their respiratory droplets, presumably). b. There’s a global shortage and doctors and nurses really need them. All I’ve been hearing locally is of course they help - hence the medical professionals need them - but that they don’t make as big of a difference if you’re a healthy person out in the world of mostly uninflected individuals, so please don’t buy any and let the doctors and nurses have them instead.
drcode 7y ago
Because bureaucracies often accidently transform "not 100% guaranteed certainty" into "doesn't work"
en-us 7y ago
I have been asking myself the same question. I think it comes down to two reasons: 1. Masks are in short supply and they believed they could save them for healthcare workers by convincing the general population they don't work. 2. If you are measuring efficacy, the general population won't reach the same level as a healthcare worker because they have not been professionally fitted and trained in on/off procedures. So instead of reducing risk by 95% the average person would see something like a 70% reduction, and they decided "perfect is better than good enough".
- Symmetry 7y ago
  If they say "Masks work" when it only works 70% of the time then a lot of people will get sick despite wearing masks, there'll be a big public outcry, and people won't trust the WHO in the future.
  - en-us 7y ago
    As opposed to public outcry from them saying masks don't work while countries with mask usage fare better?
  - xorfish 7y ago
    It would certainly be a failure if it is communicated that mask wearing prevents you from getting infected. They reduce the risk of infecting others more than they reduce the risk of getting infected. A 20% reduction in infection risk is already substantial and worth it. If there is a 50% reduction in infecting others, mask use alone could replace most social distancing measures.
  - mnm1 7y ago
    Maybe. Or they can just lose all trust instantly by claiming like the CDC, that they don't work. Now people who think will never trust the CDC ever again. Not sure what the WHO's wording was, but any organization not encouraging mass mask use cannot be trusted by anyone with a brain. Just because something isn't 100% effective, doesn't mean it's not effective. Only children and idiots think so. Unfortunately, we're surrounded by idiots.
- 7y ago
Arnt 7y ago
There are two quite different usages: 1. Diminish the number of viruses that travel out of your mouth and land on the surroundings, there to be picked up by some passer-by. 2. Prevent viruses in your surroundings from reaching you. AIUI the WHO and others have said quite loudly that masks don't work reliably for the second case.
- omegabravo 7y ago
  > AIUI the WHO and others have said quite loudly that masks don't work reliably for the second case. what does "not working reliably" mean?
  - nxc18 7y ago
    People are stupid and use them wrong. I saw people while out shopping this week who absolutely did not handle their masks correctly; while the mask still probably helped them, I’d rather see that mask go to a medical professional who will use it correctly, especially in times of extreme shortage.
  - Arnt 7y ago
    Not sure to keep the wearer from catching the disease. As opposed to merely improving the wearer's chances.
antjanus 7y ago
if you look up "does wearing a mask" on google, you'll find dozens of articles discussing the mixed messaging, how some countries encourage it while others discourage it, etc. so there's tons of back and forth with reasons/studies cited on both sides. I've yet to see a definitive answer but essentially, one of the big arguments is that if you don't know that you have COVID-19 and since it's asymptomatic when you're already infectious, wearing a mask in public may help prevent the spread to others.
virgilp 7y ago
WHO doesn't only say things they are absolutely certain about - e.g. https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152 https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152 Also, not the most reliable source, but I've heard claims that initial viral load may determine the serverity - a mask could help here too: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8166867/How-large-viral-load-make-coronavirus-infection-worse.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8166867/How-large-v...
brutos 7y ago
The message from the community was to ensure mask supply for medical staff first. They are both more at risk themselves and a risk for others due to the large numbers of contacts. Once supply is secured everyone should be educated about correct use and be encouraged to wear them. Most of Asia already has a culture of wearing masks and existing supply chains. Europe/US did not and it takes a while to establish.
jonhohle 7y ago
Other things WHO has said so far: * Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China * WHO did not recommend any travel or trade restriction based on the current information available

nerdponx 7y ago

Seems like they would, based on their recent track record.

tokamak-teapot 7y ago

Not quite, but it's certainly been confusing advice, if you can call it advice at all: https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/03/11/whos-confusing-guidance-masks-covid-19-epidemic/ https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/03/11/whos-confusing-guidance...

addHocker 7y ago
Taiwans CDC and South Korea recommend masks. That is good enough for me.

mensetmanusman 7y ago

It was mostly an effort to prevent panic buying like what happened with toilet paper. There are not enough masks produced even in a year to solve this, so they. Need to focus on medical workers having access.

drcode 7y ago
You left out the word "lied"
- nxc18 7y ago
  There’s a big difference between a nuanced message and a lie. If you see The WHO statements as a lie, you lack the understanding of the situation needed to make a thoughtful decision, and it’s for the best that you were misled. People who read the news and get “masks don’t work” out of it should not be using masks until there are enough available for professionals who need them.
  - drcode 7y ago
    If there are tons of studies showing that homemade masks prevent virus spread, almost no evidence to the contrary, and they tell people not to wear even homemade masks, I don't know what else to call it but "lying". How about I meet you half way and call it an "incompetent noble lie". https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4pt4oFDBhsC_jpblXpNtQ/mobilebasic?fbclid=IwAR2McCdT07fPQfCwnSWkv1cw3zIlndMiAsU45iOmBv9fZ75L7fuhdoxlFnc https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4p...
    - nxc18 7y ago
      Can you please point to where WHO is saying people shouldn’t use homemade masks? I’ve never seen that claim, but if it’s true it indeed doesn’t make sense. I’ve only seen CDC dissuade people from using surgical and N95 masks. Perhaps there’s concern that if CDC or others advise people to use homemade masks, people who actually do need N95 masks (e.g. severely immunocompromised) will think that works for them? Edit: there’s also the moral hazard aspect to consider: if people think wearing homemade masks is enough to protect them, they’re probably a lot more likely to ignore quarantine or social distancing. If the masks aren’t 100% effective and are used wrong, that could be worse than just staying in and social distancing.
      - drcode 7y ago
        "You should only wear a mask if a healthcare professional recommends it." A blanket statement against all types of masks without qualification. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html
        collinmanderson 7y ago
        Right, the CDC FAQ seems to say don't wear masks. However the CDC also says if you "think you might have COVID-19", you should "wear a facemask" "to help protect other people in your home and community." "You may need to improvise a facemask using a scarf or bandana." https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/if-you-are-sick/steps-when-sick.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/if-you-are-sick/st... Seems to me we should all assume we "might have COVID-19" and therefore follow CDC's advice: wear a facemask of some kind to protect other people.
- Symmetry 7y ago
  From hearing nurse aquaintances talk on Facebook, listening to This Week in Virology, etc it seems that the idea that surgical masks don't protect you from getting sick is very pervasive in the western medical community. And from a medical community standpoint it's true! If you're working with sick people every day and just use a surgical mask you'll probably get sick eventually. But in the game of telephone that is horizontal knowledge transfer "Surgical masks are generally insufficient for consistent protection in a medical setting" becomes "surgical masks don't work" and then becomes "a surgical mask won't protect you when you're going to buy groceries."

burlesona 7y ago

I didn’t think they said masks don’t work, but rather: a. Masks mostly help people who are infected to not spread it widely (by catching their respiratory droplets, presumably). b. There’s a global shortage and doctors and nurses really need them. All I’ve been hearing locally is of course they help - hence the medical professionals need them - but that they don’t make as big of a difference if you’re a healthy person out in the world of mostly uninflected individuals, so please don’t buy any and let the doctors and nurses have them instead.

drcode 7y ago

Because bureaucracies often accidently transform "not 100% guaranteed certainty" into "doesn't work"

en-us 7y ago

I have been asking myself the same question. I think it comes down to two reasons: 1. Masks are in short supply and they believed they could save them for healthcare workers by convincing the general population they don't work. 2. If you are measuring efficacy, the general population won't reach the same level as a healthcare worker because they have not been professionally fitted and trained in on/off procedures. So instead of reducing risk by 95% the average person would see something like a 70% reduction, and they decided "perfect is better than good enough".

Symmetry 7y ago
If they say "Masks work" when it only works 70% of the time then a lot of people will get sick despite wearing masks, there'll be a big public outcry, and people won't trust the WHO in the future.
- en-us 7y ago
  As opposed to public outcry from them saying masks don't work while countries with mask usage fare better?
- xorfish 7y ago
  It would certainly be a failure if it is communicated that mask wearing prevents you from getting infected. They reduce the risk of infecting others more than they reduce the risk of getting infected. A 20% reduction in infection risk is already substantial and worth it. If there is a 50% reduction in infecting others, mask use alone could replace most social distancing measures.
- mnm1 7y ago
  Maybe. Or they can just lose all trust instantly by claiming like the CDC, that they don't work. Now people who think will never trust the CDC ever again. Not sure what the WHO's wording was, but any organization not encouraging mass mask use cannot be trusted by anyone with a brain. Just because something isn't 100% effective, doesn't mean it's not effective. Only children and idiots think so. Unfortunately, we're surrounded by idiots.
7y ago

Arnt 7y ago

There are two quite different usages: 1. Diminish the number of viruses that travel out of your mouth and land on the surroundings, there to be picked up by some passer-by. 2. Prevent viruses in your surroundings from reaching you. AIUI the WHO and others have said quite loudly that masks don't work reliably for the second case.

omegabravo 7y ago
> AIUI the WHO and others have said quite loudly that masks don't work reliably for the second case. what does "not working reliably" mean?
- nxc18 7y ago
  People are stupid and use them wrong. I saw people while out shopping this week who absolutely did not handle their masks correctly; while the mask still probably helped them, I’d rather see that mask go to a medical professional who will use it correctly, especially in times of extreme shortage.
- Arnt 7y ago
  Not sure to keep the wearer from catching the disease. As opposed to merely improving the wearer's chances.

antjanus 7y ago

if you look up "does wearing a mask" on google, you'll find dozens of articles discussing the mixed messaging, how some countries encourage it while others discourage it, etc. so there's tons of back and forth with reasons/studies cited on both sides. I've yet to see a definitive answer but essentially, one of the big arguments is that if you don't know that you have COVID-19 and since it's asymptomatic when you're already infectious, wearing a mask in public may help prevent the spread to others.

virgilp 7y ago

WHO doesn't only say things they are absolutely certain about - e.g. https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152 https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152 Also, not the most reliable source, but I've heard claims that initial viral load may determine the serverity - a mask could help here too: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8166867/How-large-viral-load-make-coronavirus-infection-worse.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8166867/How-large-v...

brutos 7y ago

The message from the community was to ensure mask supply for medical staff first. They are both more at risk themselves and a risk for others due to the large numbers of contacts. Once supply is secured everyone should be educated about correct use and be encouraged to wear them. Most of Asia already has a culture of wearing masks and existing supply chains. Europe/US did not and it takes a while to establish.

jonhohle 7y ago

Other things WHO has said so far: * Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China * WHO did not recommend any travel or trade restriction based on the current information available