5 ms·

The mask denialism in the comments is incredible to see. Let's all agree (without polemics): masks can be helpful, so we should encourage everyone to wear them

The mask denialism in the comments is incredible to see. Let's all agree (without polemics): masks can be helpful, so we should encourage everyone to wear them, unless there is a shortage, in which case priority should be given to healthcare workers/elderlies/front-line staff/etc.

pishpash 7y ago
It's fucking stupid. It's like seeing condom denial because some priest says only abstinence works.
m4rtink 7y ago
And even then people should make their own mask and wear that.
Joeri 7y ago
From what I understand the WHO guidance around masks has to do with the shortages on one hand and human behavior on the other hand. People who wear masks behave in a higher risk way, and because the safety benefit from the mask by itself is quite low (without medical training you are likely to use it wrong), statistically it is better to recommend people to not wear masks so they will behave more safely. It’s a bit like gun ownership: intuitively it makes you safer, but statistically it makes you less safe because of behavioral and opportunity changes.
- bkor 7y ago
  According to the Corona expert in South Korea, masks help a great deal. His assumption on why the WHO only recommends masks in Asia and not anywhere else is due to the limited amount of supply anywhere but in Asia. In Asia people like already own masks. Anywhere else people would first need to stock up. Leading to shortages. As such, it's better not to recommend them so medical professionals are prioritized. It's also interesting that in in Europe/US they focus on a person not getting a disease. In Asia they often wear a masks if the person isn't feeling well. Meaning, the mask is to prevent the person who is wearing it from infecting others. This bit is often glossed over. The video is available at https://youtu.be/gAk7aX5hksU https://youtu.be/gAk7aX5hksU. I don't know exactly where they discussed the masks. The entire video is great, so suggest to watch the whole thing. Note: It also talks about spreading by touching your nose and then someone or some surface.
  - Dahoon 7y ago
    >In Asia people like already own masks. A mask is a biohazard and should be one-use or sterilised and removed with gloves. If you do that then yes a mask is a help. If not you are playing Russian roulette with a Corona bomb on your face. It is amazing how much energy users on HN use on talking and discussing mask use and still don't understand why a mask used wrongly is worse than no mask. Walking around town collecting germs and bringing them home with you is the mindset you need to be in if masks should be a good idea and safe.
    - spacehunt 7y ago
      Who says we don't understand? I get that not everyone has been through both SARS and the wanton deployment of tear gas, but it's just common sense for us to dump everything in the wash and have a thorough shower as soon as we get home. We waste energy on you deniers because we don't want you to become a walking biohazard yourself and infect everyone else.
  - mensetmanusman 7y ago
    Part of the supply issue is that China effectively nationalized 3M (etc.) mask production there to prevent export to other countries. Now, they are using the surplus to effectively use mask donation as political donations. Smart move on their part. Guess this risk was not considered when all the outsourcing was going on.
- salty_biscuits 7y ago
  I think your intuition on safety with gun ownership is culturally specific and maybe not the best example...
- Markoff 7y ago
  I think anything Wuhan Health Organization says should be taken with big grain of salt anymore, they are either extremely incompetent or paid by Chinese gov, none of them serves them well https://thehill.com/opinion/international/487851-china-and-the-whos-chief-hold-them-both-accountable-for-pandemic https://thehill.com/opinion/international/487851-china-and-t...
- brainzap 7y ago
  Same with bike helmets, kids drive riskier and the statistics proofs it.
  - Dahoon 7y ago
    Like motorcycle helmets wrong use is worse than no use.
nicklaf 7y ago
The most offensive idea I'm seeing here is that Americans are somehow too stupid to be trusted with masks because they can't put them on properly or will use them as an excuse to ignore social distancing protocols. I sincerely hope we don't dismiss the success of South Korea simply because of this kind of fatalistic presumption of ineptitude. If South Koreans can do it, Americans ought to be up to the challenge as well, no? Of course, people clearly will need to be open to listening carefully to their government and to closely adhering to all aspects of transmission-limiting protocols, and be instructed in proper mask fitting. I could certainly imagine seeing a breakdown of that in America, of course, since we'd need people to trust in their government, and for their government to be competent and properly funded. Which are things we frankly aren't good at, apparently for deep-seated cultural reasons.
- dboreham 7y ago
  Can the "mask shaming" be worked around by wearing a bandanna or scarf over the top to hide it, or does that reduce its effectiveness?
  - Loughla 7y ago
    In my part of the US (midwest), you would be less likely to be shamed for wearing a mask, even before all this, than a bandanna. Subsequently, that's the first time I've ever typed bandanna, and I just found out I've been spelling it wrong my entire life in writing. I thought it had one 'n' at the end. Weird.
- mnw21cam 7y ago
  > The most offensive idea I'm seeing here is that Americans are somehow too stupid to be trusted with masks because they can't put them on properly... And yet when I watch the news on TV, I see multiple cases of people wandering around outside with a mask over their mouth but not their nose. Perhaps the news people should be pointing that out, and doing a "here's how to use a mask properly" section.
  - nicklaf 7y ago
pmachinery 7y ago
Advocating against the use of other protective measures - condoms, helmets, safety belts - because they're not 100% wouldn't be given the time of day, and it's high time people stopped tolerating or even assuming good-faith from people repeating the same anti-vaxxer level crap they've read someone else regurgitate in another threads. Actual lives are being put at risk by this anti-mask idiocy; dangerous advice shouldn't be allowed to spread unhindered any more than Covid itself.
- michaelt 7y ago
  Well, you sure told the US Surgeon General [1] and the CDC [2] - good job. [1] https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/1233725785283932160 https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/12337257852839321... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/prevention.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-si...
wyager 7y ago
> masks can be helpful, so we should encourage everyone to wear them Whether it does or doesn't make sense to use masks, this is not a logical argument. "Masks can be helpful" is almost certainly true, but it doesn't imply that using them is necessarily worth the cost (in terms of material, production capacity required, convenience, etc.). "X can be helpful so we should do it", without any regard whatsoever to cost (especially opportunity cost), does seem to be the predominant thought process at the moment.

pishpash 7y ago

It's fucking stupid. It's like seeing condom denial because some priest says only abstinence works.

m4rtink 7y ago

And even then people should make their own mask and wear that.

Joeri 7y ago

From what I understand the WHO guidance around masks has to do with the shortages on one hand and human behavior on the other hand. People who wear masks behave in a higher risk way, and because the safety benefit from the mask by itself is quite low (without medical training you are likely to use it wrong), statistically it is better to recommend people to not wear masks so they will behave more safely. It’s a bit like gun ownership: intuitively it makes you safer, but statistically it makes you less safe because of behavioral and opportunity changes.

bkor 7y ago
According to the Corona expert in South Korea, masks help a great deal. His assumption on why the WHO only recommends masks in Asia and not anywhere else is due to the limited amount of supply anywhere but in Asia. In Asia people like already own masks. Anywhere else people would first need to stock up. Leading to shortages. As such, it's better not to recommend them so medical professionals are prioritized. It's also interesting that in in Europe/US they focus on a person not getting a disease. In Asia they often wear a masks if the person isn't feeling well. Meaning, the mask is to prevent the person who is wearing it from infecting others. This bit is often glossed over. The video is available at https://youtu.be/gAk7aX5hksU https://youtu.be/gAk7aX5hksU. I don't know exactly where they discussed the masks. The entire video is great, so suggest to watch the whole thing. Note: It also talks about spreading by touching your nose and then someone or some surface.
- Dahoon 7y ago
  >In Asia people like already own masks. A mask is a biohazard and should be one-use or sterilised and removed with gloves. If you do that then yes a mask is a help. If not you are playing Russian roulette with a Corona bomb on your face. It is amazing how much energy users on HN use on talking and discussing mask use and still don't understand why a mask used wrongly is worse than no mask. Walking around town collecting germs and bringing them home with you is the mindset you need to be in if masks should be a good idea and safe.
  - spacehunt 7y ago
    Who says we don't understand? I get that not everyone has been through both SARS and the wanton deployment of tear gas, but it's just common sense for us to dump everything in the wash and have a thorough shower as soon as we get home. We waste energy on you deniers because we don't want you to become a walking biohazard yourself and infect everyone else.
- mensetmanusman 7y ago
  Part of the supply issue is that China effectively nationalized 3M (etc.) mask production there to prevent export to other countries. Now, they are using the surplus to effectively use mask donation as political donations. Smart move on their part. Guess this risk was not considered when all the outsourcing was going on.
salty_biscuits 7y ago
I think your intuition on safety with gun ownership is culturally specific and maybe not the best example...
Markoff 7y ago
I think anything Wuhan Health Organization says should be taken with big grain of salt anymore, they are either extremely incompetent or paid by Chinese gov, none of them serves them well https://thehill.com/opinion/international/487851-china-and-the-whos-chief-hold-them-both-accountable-for-pandemic https://thehill.com/opinion/international/487851-china-and-t...
brainzap 7y ago
Same with bike helmets, kids drive riskier and the statistics proofs it.
- Dahoon 7y ago
  Like motorcycle helmets wrong use is worse than no use.

nicklaf 7y ago

The most offensive idea I'm seeing here is that Americans are somehow too stupid to be trusted with masks because they can't put them on properly or will use them as an excuse to ignore social distancing protocols. I sincerely hope we don't dismiss the success of South Korea simply because of this kind of fatalistic presumption of ineptitude. If South Koreans can do it, Americans ought to be up to the challenge as well, no? Of course, people clearly will need to be open to listening carefully to their government and to closely adhering to all aspects of transmission-limiting protocols, and be instructed in proper mask fitting. I could certainly imagine seeing a breakdown of that in America, of course, since we'd need people to trust in their government, and for their government to be competent and properly funded. Which are things we frankly aren't good at, apparently for deep-seated cultural reasons.

dboreham 7y ago
Can the "mask shaming" be worked around by wearing a bandanna or scarf over the top to hide it, or does that reduce its effectiveness?
- Loughla 7y ago
  In my part of the US (midwest), you would be less likely to be shamed for wearing a mask, even before all this, than a bandanna. Subsequently, that's the first time I've ever typed bandanna, and I just found out I've been spelling it wrong my entire life in writing. I thought it had one 'n' at the end. Weird.
mnw21cam 7y ago
> The most offensive idea I'm seeing here is that Americans are somehow too stupid to be trusted with masks because they can't put them on properly... And yet when I watch the news on TV, I see multiple cases of people wandering around outside with a mask over their mouth but not their nose. Perhaps the news people should be pointing that out, and doing a "here's how to use a mask properly" section.
- nicklaf 7y ago

pmachinery 7y ago

Advocating against the use of other protective measures - condoms, helmets, safety belts - because they're not 100% wouldn't be given the time of day, and it's high time people stopped tolerating or even assuming good-faith from people repeating the same anti-vaxxer level crap they've read someone else regurgitate in another threads. Actual lives are being put at risk by this anti-mask idiocy; dangerous advice shouldn't be allowed to spread unhindered any more than Covid itself.

michaelt 7y ago
Well, you sure told the US Surgeon General [1] and the CDC [2] - good job. [1] https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/1233725785283932160 https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/12337257852839321... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/prevention.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-si...

wyager 7y ago

> masks can be helpful, so we should encourage everyone to wear them Whether it does or doesn't make sense to use masks, this is not a logical argument. "Masks can be helpful" is almost certainly true, but it doesn't imply that using them is necessarily worth the cost (in terms of material, production capacity required, convenience, etc.). "X can be helpful so we should do it", without any regard whatsoever to cost (especially opportunity cost), does seem to be the predominant thought process at the moment.