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Because it's common sense that an invasive medical procedure needs to be administered by someone with some semblance of competence in medicine, if you expect th

Because it's common sense that an invasive medical procedure needs to be administered by someone with some semblance of competence in medicine, if you expect the patient to have a shot at not dying. An emergency doesn't change the hard technical requirement of administering ventilation. Or rather, this should be common sense, but the over-inflated egos on HN don't understand that it takes more than knowing which button does what to operate a ventilator. Being able to hold a paint brush is a very different skill level than painting a portrait.

jacquesm 7y ago
> Being able to hold a paint brush is a very different skill level than painting a portrait. Painful given some past threads on this subject. Other than that: spot on.
- mistermann 7y ago
  Do you believe that we can infer useful information about ventilators from this? I'm not seeing much relevance to this conversation.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    I can infer some useful information about you from this thread. It is that you actually don't give a damn but you love arguing, the more the merrier and no matter whether or not you stray far off-topic, you'll be happy because that gives you yet another thing you can argue about. If there is relevance to this conversation in the 10,000 or so words that you have spent on this thread then I fail to see it, so I really don't know what this particular comment is trying to achieve other than that it has me considering whether I shouldn't just plain give up on HN. Don Hopkins has it right, sealioning is the perfect term to describe what you are doing and it is a destructive thing on something as fragile as this forum because it narrowly fits the guidelines and yet makes it impossible to have a normal conversation. It's the online version of passive aggressive belligerence with a veneer of sincerity on top.
    - omar_a1 7y ago
      I've been making liberal use of the flag button for the trolling comments once I picked up on the pattern.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        Ditto.
        omar_a1 7y ago
        On the bright side, I learned the term "sealioning" today, so thanks for that! :D
        DonHopkins 7y ago
        Sealioning is a Gamergate tactic, so it's quite possible he's one of those disruptive children, and that's where he learned it from. He's certainly doing it regularly and systematically and by the book, as if it's a job he's been trained to do, he has a checklist of talking points and techniques, and is being paid for his time, number of posts, and number of words. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sea-lioning https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sea-lioning Another tactic you can see him practicing, which we're all familiar with coming out of the White House, is psychological projection. Trolls like misterman are fully aware they're sealioning, know all the terminology because they study and emulate it, and they love to throw around and misuse terms like that themselves, to attack other sincere people for doing what they're actually maliciously doing themselves, to make it seem like it's just "both sides", which it's not. It's not just an internet thing. Here's an example of how racists sealion and project in real life: https://medium.com/@codeGrit/a-story-about-sealions-gamergate-notyourshield-dc7227ac273e https://medium.com/@codeGrit/a-story-about-sealions-gamergat...
      - DonHopkins 7y ago
        Thank you! His pattern of sealioning is outrageously obvious and blatantly unoriginal and formulaic. It's as if he has a dog-eared copy of "Sealioning for Dummies" marked up with yellow highter pen and bookmarked with post-it pads, that he's following step by step, page by page, checking off each technique and trick as he tries it. Sealioning is related to the Gish Gallop, to which there are some countermeasures that work (beyond systematically flagging his post every time he does it, which is the least we all can do to protect the community). The approach that worked for me, and shut him up cold in his steps and made him suddenly retreat, is to be very calm and structured about your replies, and not let him derail you, which is something that we can all cooperate together on, and support each other by doing together as a tag team. Carefully chose and enumerate your questions, and repeat them when he doesn't answer them, but don't get distracted by his off-topic diversions, or his passive aggressive belligerence with a veneer of sincerity on top. His pseudo-intellectualism and pretend-open-mindedness and saccharine-sincerity is all just an act, and you don't owe him the level of courtesy that he is pretending to extend to you and mocking you with. I can practically see him laughing to himself (and his Gamergate veteran buddies) behind the keyboard every time he thinks he's fooled anyone into taking him seriously, because he certainly doesn't believe what he says. Just calmly point out every time he ignores one of your questions or somebody else's questions, or tries to derail the conversation. Keep relentlessly pushing him back onto the topic, and never let him derail you. When I did that, he was mortified and childishly complained that I was not the boss of him, and that I could not tell him what to do, or force him to answer my questions, then he immediately lost interest and fled without another word, because the last thing he actually wanted to to was to stay on topic and answer the questions I would not stop asking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop Technique and counter measures During a Gish gallop, a debater confronts an opponent with a rapid series of many specious arguments, half-truths, and misrepresentations in a short space of time, which makes it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of a formal debate.[3][4] In practice, each point raised by the "Gish galloper" takes considerably more time to refute or fact-check than it did to state in the first place.[5] The technique wastes an opponent's time and may cast doubt on the opponent's debating ability for an audience unfamiliar with the technique, especially if no independent fact-checking is involved[6] or if the audience has limited knowledge of the topics. Generally, it is more difficult to use the Gish gallop in a structured debate than in a free-form one.[7] If a debater is familiar with an opponent who is known to use the Gish gallop, the technique may be countered by pre-empting and refuting the opponent's commonly used arguments first, before the opponent has an opportunity to launch into a Gish gallop.[8]
mistermann 7y ago
> Because it's common sense that an invasive medical procedure needs to be administered by someone with some semblance of competence in medicine, if you expect the patient to have a shot at not dying. Common sense does not determine how difficult something is, how difficult it is determines that. Reality, for the most part, flows into the brain from the outside world, not the other way around. > An emergency doesn't change the hard technical requirement of administering ventilation. Neither does common sense. The "the hard technical requirement of administering ventilation" is precisely as hard as it is. So, how hard is that? You represent (in poker parlance) that you know the answers to such things, but you seem reluctant to provide evidence. > Or rather, this should be common sense, but the over-inflated egos on HN don't understand that it takes more than knowing which button does what to operate a ventilator. This seems a bit ironic, because no one other than you has made that specific claim. > Being able to hold a paint brush is a very different skill level than painting a portrait. Now this statement is actually correct, but unfortunately I don't think it has much relevance to the topic at hand.
- omar_a1 7y ago
  I could explain how analogies work, but then you'd just insist that the last sentence somehow doesn't meet the criteria for "analogy." I feel like I'm arguing with a bot here.
- cycrutchfield 7y ago
  Bravo, you are a masterful troll. You should do this for a living, if you don’t already.
  - dang 7y ago
    Personal attack and name-calling are not ok, regardless of how badly someone else has behaved. Please don't make HN threads even worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: it looks like you've been posting other flamewar comments to HN too. We ban accounts that do that, so please don't do that.
- DonHopkins 7y ago

jacquesm 7y ago

> Being able to hold a paint brush is a very different skill level than painting a portrait. Painful given some past threads on this subject. Other than that: spot on.

mistermann 7y ago
Do you believe that we can infer useful information about ventilators from this? I'm not seeing much relevance to this conversation.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  I can infer some useful information about you from this thread. It is that you actually don't give a damn but you love arguing, the more the merrier and no matter whether or not you stray far off-topic, you'll be happy because that gives you yet another thing you can argue about. If there is relevance to this conversation in the 10,000 or so words that you have spent on this thread then I fail to see it, so I really don't know what this particular comment is trying to achieve other than that it has me considering whether I shouldn't just plain give up on HN. Don Hopkins has it right, sealioning is the perfect term to describe what you are doing and it is a destructive thing on something as fragile as this forum because it narrowly fits the guidelines and yet makes it impossible to have a normal conversation. It's the online version of passive aggressive belligerence with a veneer of sincerity on top.
  - omar_a1 7y ago
    I've been making liberal use of the flag button for the trolling comments once I picked up on the pattern.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      Ditto.
      - omar_a1 7y ago
        On the bright side, I learned the term "sealioning" today, so thanks for that! :D
        DonHopkins 7y ago
        Sealioning is a Gamergate tactic, so it's quite possible he's one of those disruptive children, and that's where he learned it from. He's certainly doing it regularly and systematically and by the book, as if it's a job he's been trained to do, he has a checklist of talking points and techniques, and is being paid for his time, number of posts, and number of words. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sea-lioning https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sea-lioning Another tactic you can see him practicing, which we're all familiar with coming out of the White House, is psychological projection. Trolls like misterman are fully aware they're sealioning, know all the terminology because they study and emulate it, and they love to throw around and misuse terms like that themselves, to attack other sincere people for doing what they're actually maliciously doing themselves, to make it seem like it's just "both sides", which it's not. It's not just an internet thing. Here's an example of how racists sealion and project in real life: https://medium.com/@codeGrit/a-story-about-sealions-gamergate-notyourshield-dc7227ac273e https://medium.com/@codeGrit/a-story-about-sealions-gamergat...
    - DonHopkins 7y ago
      Thank you! His pattern of sealioning is outrageously obvious and blatantly unoriginal and formulaic. It's as if he has a dog-eared copy of "Sealioning for Dummies" marked up with yellow highter pen and bookmarked with post-it pads, that he's following step by step, page by page, checking off each technique and trick as he tries it. Sealioning is related to the Gish Gallop, to which there are some countermeasures that work (beyond systematically flagging his post every time he does it, which is the least we all can do to protect the community). The approach that worked for me, and shut him up cold in his steps and made him suddenly retreat, is to be very calm and structured about your replies, and not let him derail you, which is something that we can all cooperate together on, and support each other by doing together as a tag team. Carefully chose and enumerate your questions, and repeat them when he doesn't answer them, but don't get distracted by his off-topic diversions, or his passive aggressive belligerence with a veneer of sincerity on top. His pseudo-intellectualism and pretend-open-mindedness and saccharine-sincerity is all just an act, and you don't owe him the level of courtesy that he is pretending to extend to you and mocking you with. I can practically see him laughing to himself (and his Gamergate veteran buddies) behind the keyboard every time he thinks he's fooled anyone into taking him seriously, because he certainly doesn't believe what he says. Just calmly point out every time he ignores one of your questions or somebody else's questions, or tries to derail the conversation. Keep relentlessly pushing him back onto the topic, and never let him derail you. When I did that, he was mortified and childishly complained that I was not the boss of him, and that I could not tell him what to do, or force him to answer my questions, then he immediately lost interest and fled without another word, because the last thing he actually wanted to to was to stay on topic and answer the questions I would not stop asking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop Technique and counter measures During a Gish gallop, a debater confronts an opponent with a rapid series of many specious arguments, half-truths, and misrepresentations in a short space of time, which makes it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of a formal debate.[3][4] In practice, each point raised by the "Gish galloper" takes considerably more time to refute or fact-check than it did to state in the first place.[5] The technique wastes an opponent's time and may cast doubt on the opponent's debating ability for an audience unfamiliar with the technique, especially if no independent fact-checking is involved[6] or if the audience has limited knowledge of the topics. Generally, it is more difficult to use the Gish gallop in a structured debate than in a free-form one.[7] If a debater is familiar with an opponent who is known to use the Gish gallop, the technique may be countered by pre-empting and refuting the opponent's commonly used arguments first, before the opponent has an opportunity to launch into a Gish gallop.[8]

mistermann 7y ago

> Because it's common sense that an invasive medical procedure needs to be administered by someone with some semblance of competence in medicine, if you expect the patient to have a shot at not dying. Common sense does not determine how difficult something is, how difficult it is determines that. Reality, for the most part, flows into the brain from the outside world, not the other way around. > An emergency doesn't change the hard technical requirement of administering ventilation. Neither does common sense. The "the hard technical requirement of administering ventilation" is precisely as hard as it is. So, how hard is that? You represent (in poker parlance) that you know the answers to such things, but you seem reluctant to provide evidence. > Or rather, this should be common sense, but the over-inflated egos on HN don't understand that it takes more than knowing which button does what to operate a ventilator. This seems a bit ironic, because no one other than you has made that specific claim. > Being able to hold a paint brush is a very different skill level than painting a portrait. Now this statement is actually correct, but unfortunately I don't think it has much relevance to the topic at hand.

omar_a1 7y ago
I could explain how analogies work, but then you'd just insist that the last sentence somehow doesn't meet the criteria for "analogy." I feel like I'm arguing with a bot here.
cycrutchfield 7y ago
Bravo, you are a masterful troll. You should do this for a living, if you don’t already.
- dang 7y ago
  Personal attack and name-calling are not ok, regardless of how badly someone else has behaved. Please don't make HN threads even worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: it looks like you've been posting other flamewar comments to HN too. We ban accounts that do that, so please don't do that.
DonHopkins 7y ago