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Can you quote whatever you're talking about? I've searched the letter using keywords "demonic", "demon", and "infect" and can't figure out what you're talking

by PakG1 7y ago

Can you quote whatever you're talking about? I've searched the letter using keywords "demonic", "demon", and "infect" and can't figure out what you're talking about.

perl4ever 7y ago
"Some are even worse than that. They keep it secret that they have the disease and go among others in the belief that by contaminating and poisoning others they can rid themselves of the plague and so recover. With this idea they enter streets and homes, trying to saddle children or servants with the disease and thus save themselves. I certainly believe that this is the devil’s doing, who helps turn the wheel of fate to make this happen. I have been told that some are so incredibly vicious that they circulate among people and enter homes because they are sorry that the plague has not reached that far and wish to carry it in, as though it were a prank like putting lice into fur garments or flies into someone’s living room. I do not know whether I should believe this; if it is true, I do not know whether we Germans are not really devils instead of human beings. It must be admitted that there are some extremely coarse and wicked people. The devil is never idle. My advice is that if any such persons are discovered, the judge should take them by the ear and turn them over to Master Jack, the hangman, as outright and deliberate murderers. What else are such people but assassins in our town? Here and there an assassin will jab a knife through someone and no one can find the culprit. So these folk infect a child here, a woman there, and can never be caught. They go on laughing as though they had accomplished something. Where this is the case, it would be better to live among wild beasts than with such murderers. I do not know how to preach to such killers. They pay no heed. I appeal to the authorities to take charge and turn them over to the help and advice not of physicians, but of Master Jack, the hangman."
- perl4ever 7y ago
  Also, TIL that "putting lice into fur garments" was a typical German "prank" of his time. Or something.
- PakG1 7y ago
  He is describing hypothetical people who purposely infecting others with a deadly disease and then laughing about it. This was the bubonic plague. He is not calling for vigilante justice, but rather for government action leading to capital punishment by the authorities. I thought you were referring to some kind of vigilante justice the way Duterte in the Philippines called for people to pick up guns and kill suspected drug dealers with their own hands. I'm not for capital punishment. But calling for capital punishment enacted by the authorities leads to a debate about whether capital punishment is good or bad, and I wouldn't call into question someone's character just because they support eye-for-an-eye capital punishment. If they were supporting eye-for-an-eye vigilante justice, I'd be very scared. But capital punishment is a debate that happens every day, and I don't say that anyone who supports it is a deplorable person. I do try to convince them why I think capital punishment is a bad idea, but that's different from calling into question their character.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    "He is describing hypothetical people" He's not talking about hypothetical criminals and capital punishment in a modern sense. He's talking about a vague concept that seems to overlap with the witches that were burned over several centuries. He's talking about "people" who may be devils and not human. And saying they need to be hanged by an official in no way implies that is the only acceptable way of dealing with them. I don't mean to suggest he's other than a product of his time. He couldn't know that fleas spread the plague. So ignorance of what was going on would have had terrible consequences in trying to assign blame. But people do try to shoehorn sages from centuries ago into a modern sensibility.
    - PakG1 7y ago
      I'm not sure. He seems to add a lot of caveats that indicate he doesn't necessarily believe the stories to be real (emphasis mine): "I do not know whether I should believe this; if it is true, I do not know whether we Germans are not really devils instead of human beings. It must be admitted that there are some extremely coarse and wicked people. The devil is never idle. My advice is that if any such persons are discovered" I think he did know that the plague was spread by something physical. He talks about fumigation. And he's not wrong to say that social distancing is preferred. He doesn't seem to be any different from people condemning spring breakers in Florida who have outright stated that they don't care if they get the virus. His reaction is more extreme, but he was saying that if such people are blatantly infecting others with a known deadly disease and laughing about it, they should correspondingly be punished with death. He is not suggesting that he himself or anyone individual should execute them. He is suggesting that they should be punished by the authorities by death. Calling them devils, if I read in the context of the whole thing, he seems to be using hyperbole, not sincerely believing them to be supernatural beings, but rather, just something evil the way that some people may call serial killers or morbid gang members devils. He does say that such people could be influenced by "the devil", a supernatural being, but that's not a huge surprise, given his beliefs, and it's certainly not something he dwells on. If he truly believed them to be devils instead of using hyperbole, I'm sure that his recommended remedy would be something along the lines of prayer and exorcism for them, not hanging. Rather, he focuses on the behaviour and the corresponding punishment, not the supernatural. If he focused his letter more on the supernatural than he does, I'd be inclined to agree with your conclusions. Like I've read some American preachers apparently talk about COVID-19 in a very religious vein, much more than what I see in this letter. Those people really focus on the religious stuff, not the physical behaviour. I don't see that in Luther's letter. Given what I've read here, I think he is focused more on social realities and talking about hypothetical criminals and capital punishment in a modern sense. He does use religious language and logic to explain his points, but I can excuse him for that, given his background and occupation. We need to be able to understand whether our interpretation matches what someone is intending to say, it's very easy for our interpretations to be wrong, especially if one is using hyperbole. Yes, I could be wrong too, of course.
perl4ever 7y ago
Why, when I replied to this, was it flagged? Should I have posted it in the original German?

by PakG1 7y ago

Can you quote whatever you're talking about? I've searched the letter using keywords "demonic", "demon", and "infect" and can't figure out what you're talking about.

perl4ever 7y ago

"Some are even worse than that. They keep it secret that they have the disease and go among others in the belief that by contaminating and poisoning others they can rid themselves of the plague and so recover. With this idea they enter streets and homes, trying to saddle children or servants with the disease and thus save themselves. I certainly believe that this is the devil’s doing, who helps turn the wheel of fate to make this happen. I have been told that some are so incredibly vicious that they circulate among people and enter homes because they are sorry that the plague has not reached that far and wish to carry it in, as though it were a prank like putting lice into fur garments or flies into someone’s living room. I do not know whether I should believe this; if it is true, I do not know whether we Germans are not really devils instead of human beings. It must be admitted that there are some extremely coarse and wicked people. The devil is never idle. My advice is that if any such persons are discovered, the judge should take them by the ear and turn them over to Master Jack, the hangman, as outright and deliberate murderers. What else are such people but assassins in our town? Here and there an assassin will jab a knife through someone and no one can find the culprit. So these folk infect a child here, a woman there, and can never be caught. They go on laughing as though they had accomplished something. Where this is the case, it would be better to live among wild beasts than with such murderers. I do not know how to preach to such killers. They pay no heed. I appeal to the authorities to take charge and turn them over to the help and advice not of physicians, but of Master Jack, the hangman."

perl4ever 7y ago
Also, TIL that "putting lice into fur garments" was a typical German "prank" of his time. Or something.
PakG1 7y ago
He is describing hypothetical people who purposely infecting others with a deadly disease and then laughing about it. This was the bubonic plague. He is not calling for vigilante justice, but rather for government action leading to capital punishment by the authorities. I thought you were referring to some kind of vigilante justice the way Duterte in the Philippines called for people to pick up guns and kill suspected drug dealers with their own hands. I'm not for capital punishment. But calling for capital punishment enacted by the authorities leads to a debate about whether capital punishment is good or bad, and I wouldn't call into question someone's character just because they support eye-for-an-eye capital punishment. If they were supporting eye-for-an-eye vigilante justice, I'd be very scared. But capital punishment is a debate that happens every day, and I don't say that anyone who supports it is a deplorable person. I do try to convince them why I think capital punishment is a bad idea, but that's different from calling into question their character.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  "He is describing hypothetical people" He's not talking about hypothetical criminals and capital punishment in a modern sense. He's talking about a vague concept that seems to overlap with the witches that were burned over several centuries. He's talking about "people" who may be devils and not human. And saying they need to be hanged by an official in no way implies that is the only acceptable way of dealing with them. I don't mean to suggest he's other than a product of his time. He couldn't know that fleas spread the plague. So ignorance of what was going on would have had terrible consequences in trying to assign blame. But people do try to shoehorn sages from centuries ago into a modern sensibility.
  - PakG1 7y ago
    I'm not sure. He seems to add a lot of caveats that indicate he doesn't necessarily believe the stories to be real (emphasis mine): "I do not know whether I should believe this; if it is true, I do not know whether we Germans are not really devils instead of human beings. It must be admitted that there are some extremely coarse and wicked people. The devil is never idle. My advice is that if any such persons are discovered" I think he did know that the plague was spread by something physical. He talks about fumigation. And he's not wrong to say that social distancing is preferred. He doesn't seem to be any different from people condemning spring breakers in Florida who have outright stated that they don't care if they get the virus. His reaction is more extreme, but he was saying that if such people are blatantly infecting others with a known deadly disease and laughing about it, they should correspondingly be punished with death. He is not suggesting that he himself or anyone individual should execute them. He is suggesting that they should be punished by the authorities by death. Calling them devils, if I read in the context of the whole thing, he seems to be using hyperbole, not sincerely believing them to be supernatural beings, but rather, just something evil the way that some people may call serial killers or morbid gang members devils. He does say that such people could be influenced by "the devil", a supernatural being, but that's not a huge surprise, given his beliefs, and it's certainly not something he dwells on. If he truly believed them to be devils instead of using hyperbole, I'm sure that his recommended remedy would be something along the lines of prayer and exorcism for them, not hanging. Rather, he focuses on the behaviour and the corresponding punishment, not the supernatural. If he focused his letter more on the supernatural than he does, I'd be inclined to agree with your conclusions. Like I've read some American preachers apparently talk about COVID-19 in a very religious vein, much more than what I see in this letter. Those people really focus on the religious stuff, not the physical behaviour. I don't see that in Luther's letter. Given what I've read here, I think he is focused more on social realities and talking about hypothetical criminals and capital punishment in a modern sense. He does use religious language and logic to explain his points, but I can excuse him for that, given his background and occupation. We need to be able to understand whether our interpretation matches what someone is intending to say, it's very easy for our interpretations to be wrong, especially if one is using hyperbole. Yes, I could be wrong too, of course.

perl4ever 7y ago

Why, when I replied to this, was it flagged? Should I have posted it in the original German?