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Introduction to tangzhong (2018)
- AndrewOMartin 7y agoTangzhong - A technique for softer yeast bread and rolls.
- gegtik 7y agoTangzhong - A technique for softer yeast bread and rolls.
- Spivak 7y agoGlad to see there are at least a few bread nerds on HN! Tangzhong is also sometimes refereed to as a water roux which I think makes a little more sense for Western cooks since any cook will hear water roux and be 99% of the way there in terms of knowing what's happening. Anyway! This idea can work will all kinds of starches because the "trick" is to trap some additional water in a gelatinized ball and spread that throughout the dough. It makes for higher total water content while not making to dough loose to produce more steam, and the starches help the gluten trap it. You can even use gelatin itself! When you make potato bread/rolls at Thanksgiving you're using the same trick but with potato starch!
- ajot 7y agoVery useful for making a moist and tender cake. In fact, there's the old trick of mixing a pudding mix with a cake mix [0], with similar results for lazy peole or people who think they're bad at cooking. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sjv3LRVubo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sjv3LRVubo
- Tarrosion 7y agoI think the point of "additional water" is key! Modernist Bread claims that tangzhong doesn't increase softness/volume. But, as I read their experiment, it sounds like they made breads with/without tangzhong but keeping the total water content constant.
- mjb 7y agoThat's been my experience. I often make ciabatta with 95% hydration, of which 1/3rd comes from a water roux. Without tangzhong the dough is much sticker and harder to handle, which makes it harder to both form the loaves nicely, and to keep the large bubbles in the bread. The final product is very similar, though, but the process is easier. The approach I take is similar to this one http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-coccodrillo-ciabatta-bread http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-coccodril... with 30g of flour and 150g of water pre-cooked together before the dough (batter?) is kneaded. It also helps a lot in sticky doughs. If you like spiced fruit buns around Easter time, check out King Arthur's milk bread recipe (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/japanese-milk-bread-rolls-recipe https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/japanese-milk-bread-...) and spice and fruit to taste. Best hot cross buns I've eaten.
- James_Henry 7y agoAs pointed out in this post, tangzhong not only makes soft breads with a nice crumb, but it also makes them stay soft for a longer time period than you'd often find. In my opinion and from my own experience, this is the best part of this technique. In the past my loafs would not really last a week without being pretty dry, now they stay much more moist and I can have better sandwich bread with less baking
- dharmon 7y agoDifferent things. A pre-ferment (poolish, biga) is for developing some of the more complex flavors that a quick / "straight" dough won't give you. Tangzhong is basically about packing more moisture into a dough while keeping it easy to handle. Higher hydration doughs are very sticky and take some experience to work with, but this will let you get something that is like a 75% hydration, but still handles like a 70% hydration dough. (I just made up these numbers, but you get the point). For my part, I am fairly experienced with handling up to 80-ish% hydration, so I never bother with tangzhong, since it just adds another thing to do and creates more dishes to wash.
- James_Henry 7y agoSorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Tangzhong doesn't just "pack more moisture into a dough while keeping it easy to handle". It changes the loaf after baking, too. From what I understand this is because the flour that is cooked in the roux has its gluten destroyed, thus you have a paste in your dough that isn't imparting structure in the same way and holds moisture in a different way, even after baking. So tangzhong can give you a higher hydration, but it's not necessarily the same thing as your 80-ish% hydration dough.
- dharmon 7y agoMeh. I've tried both and don't see the difference. TFA backs up what I'm saying. If you know of a source that claims it changes the structure in ways besides what the article says I'd be interested in reading.
- kazinator 7y ago> This Japanese technique No Japanese anything is called "tangzhong". The technique is called "yudane" in Japanese: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B9%AF%E7%A8%AE https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B9%AF%E7%A8%AE That's written 湯種, where "yu" and "tane" are the Japanese native words corresponding to these character. "Tangzhong" may a romanization of a Chinese re-reading of this spelling. (For comparison, the Sino-Japanese reading ("onyomi"), if there were one, would likely be "tanshu".) By the way, we know this is of Japanese origin because the word "tane" has meanings like "material" and "leaven dough". It's written 種, but that 種 character only has that meaning when it denotes "tane" in Japanese.
- thebooktocome 7y agoThere is a similar technique in Chinese baking called tangzhong. That is indeed the pinyin of 湯種. I doubt there's enough evidence to determine if it was a Japanese or Chinese invention. Either name is acceptable.
- fermienrico 7y ago> Either name is acceptable Not when the origin is mixed up. If the article said "Chinese technique of Tangzhong" or the "Japanese technique of Yudane", then its fine. The person you're replying to is talking about the mix up of the origin. No one is talking about who came first.
- flotzam 7y agoIs this incompatible with a substantial crust, or can you have both in one loaf of bread? (I'm asking as a very novice baker.)
- mjb 7y agoI've never had crust issues with this technique, although I do use a steam injection oven which makes it easier. It's doesn't seem to have the same effect as enriched dough in making the crust soft.
- chris_st 7y agoThanks to another bread discussion on HN, I'm a very happy user of Peter Reinhart's Whole Wheat breads and Bread Baker's Apprentice books. He does something similar with the overnight soaker/poolish/biga recipes, which have been highly successful in improving my whole-wheat bread. Is this similar, or a different technique worth trying? Thanks!
- anateus 7y agoHere's video on this by Cook's Illustrated editor in chief Dan Souza. It goes a little bit into the science behind the technique and offers a microwave-based variation: "How to Transform Flour and Water into the Fluffiest Dinner Rolls| What's Eating Dan?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2GWOHcEBcM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2GWOHcEBcM