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Obviously because being an ICU doctor isn't something hard like writing code. Fewer buttons on a ventilator! /s But seriously, the amount of people on here tri

Obviously because being an ICU doctor isn't something hard like writing code. Fewer buttons on a ventilator! /s But seriously, the amount of people on here trivializing modern medicine isn't helping matters. Granted, neither is business-as-usual, but a 30-day "ventilator boot camp" for untrained professionals is going to kill far more people than it helps. And a poor allocation of resources during a time of scarcity.

jacquesm 7y ago
> But seriously, the amount of people on here trivializing modern medicine isn't helping matters. It's absolutely incredible. But that's exactly the kind of attitude that 'move fast and break things' fosters.
- mistermann 7y ago
  "Trivializing modern medicine" seems inconsistent with what I've read here, can you quote the text where someone has done this?
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    Nobody wants to respond to your attempts at sealioning. Quoting text to you isn't going to change your mind or behavior. Everything you've written here is inconsistent and contradictory, and you desperately try to derail the conversation and change the subject whenever anyone points that out, then you run away when you realize you've painted yourself into a corner and are getting called on it. Just look at how many downvotes and flags you're getting, and how many of your postings are light colored, dead, and hidden. You're well on your way to a shadow ban. I wonder how long it will take you to figure it out that the only people replying to you have "showdead" set to true, because they love to see you floundering. If somebody's paying you by the hour for trolling, then they certainly are not getting their money's worth, because the moderation system is working, as the text in your posts becomes lighter and lighter until your posts are hidden and nobody sees them, thankfully. Go back to Gamergate where you came from, mistermann.
ALittleLight 7y ago
Again, nobody is saying that ventilator boot camp graduates should replace doctors. If there is a concern that there will be more people who need ventilators than we have medical professionals to operate ventilators - then the answer is that we need to quickly increase numbers of ventilator-operators - even if they are substandard. Perhaps you think our capacity won't be overwhelmed. Then it would make perfect sense not to bother training amateur operators. If you think an amateur operator is worse than no operator, I'd like to see your evidence. If all you have is your intuition then my intuition is that you're wrong.
- omar_a1 7y ago
  No, it's that I'm aware that "ventilator bootcamps" would be a resounding failure that would kill more people than it saves. Going from zero to medical professional - not a doctor, just someone who can perform invasive medical procedures without killing a large number of people - isn't 30 days of work. Ignoring that reality will recklessly endanger people's lives. If we're talking veterinarians, dentists, nurses, residents, MDs in unrelated specialties - then sure! They actually have the requisite knowlege and manual dexterity to cross-train. But going from, say SWE to ventilator operator, is not a 30 day crash course. > If you think an amateur operator is worse than no operator, I'd like to see your evidence. If all you have is your intuition then my intuition is that you're wrong. Because then you end up wasting a life and keeping a ventilator occupied, when there are much more efficient ways to kill patients that don't involve misusing a ventilator. Former scientist, including (lab side) FDA trials. Medicine is complicated. Even sterile technique, to make sure you don't inadvertently give your patient a life-threatening infection in the process of "helping" them, can take years to get right. This is true of the most routine aspects of any kind of medical work. But, do tell: since my "intuition" is so obviously wrong, I want to hear all about your empirical research. Or let's just start with your credentials, medical or otherwise.
  - ALittleLight 7y ago
    Earlier in this thread it's stipulated that the bottleneck is not the number of ventilators but the trained people to operate them. As such, training more operators is an obvious solution, and allowing the new operators to be substandard will mean we can get more operators faster. This pretty much dissolves your only real objection, that we'd be keeping a ventilator occupied that would otherwise be in use. Nope. The solution to a deficit of ventilators is producing more - not letting people die without them. Generally, you are trying to invent reasons and restrictions to make trying to train ventilator-operators seem like a bad idea rather than understanding or advancing how the idea might be viable. An example of this is how you acknowledge that training other medical adjacent professionals (e.g. vetrenarians) would likely work. Great, you agree the idea could work. If you expect that our capacity will be overwhelmed then presumably you think we should training additional operators. Instead of reaching that conclusion you imagine reasons to object to the idea though. A SWE would likely be worse than a vet after a bootcamp. That's a good reason to have some entry requirements to the bootcamp and those requirements could be relaxed or strengthened depending on where we expect demand to be in 30 days relative to supply. A SWE through a 30-day bootcamp would likely be better than nothing. The other main constraint you've imagined is that they would need to save more people than they kill to be worthwhile. No, they'd need to save more people than would die without them. If it would be better to just struggle to breathe than have an amateur operator, that would be an argument against them. Your credentials, whatever they are, haven't equipped you to clearly communicate your reasons for opposing this idea. As I mentioned, it seems like you actually support some version of it.
mistermann 7y ago
The number of people on here perceiving or claiming that people are trivializing modern medicine, when their actual words say nothing of the kind, may also be unhelpful.
- omar_a1 7y ago
  Claiming that untrained staff could administer a ventilator from a 30 day bootcamp fits under that definition.
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    Are you medically trained in the use of a ventilator? If not, I don't see how you could make that judgment either.
    - omar_a1 7y ago
      No, and I'm not a brain surgeon either, so I suppose I can't claim you aren't qualified to perform brain surgery, using that logic. Better scrub up! But if you're going to claim the contrary, I take it that you have a wealth of experience administering ventilation. For the record, I've worked in fields tangential to medicine, including lab research for FDA trials and health tech. I may not be qualified to operate a ventilator, but I'm experienced enough to understand the technical skill gap between a non-invasive procedure and an invasive one. And ventilation falls into the latter category.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    Perhaps I missed it, could you quote the text of that claim, please?
    - DonHopkins 7y ago
      Don't anyone bother replying to this obvious sealioning troll technique. He has no intention of carrying out any kind of sincere argument, and his politeness is totally fake: he has no respect for anyone he's arguing with, he's just trying to waste everyone's time. Of course he saw it, but he didn't like what he saw, so now he's pretending to have missed it on purpose, so repeating the facts he's ignoring won't make one bit of difference, and is just the two steps backwards he wants. Notice how he always tries to repeat this same pattern in so many other postings, and don't reply to any of his attempts at trolling, except to explicitly point out what he's doing. And remember to flag him every time he does it, please!

jacquesm 7y ago

> But seriously, the amount of people on here trivializing modern medicine isn't helping matters. It's absolutely incredible. But that's exactly the kind of attitude that 'move fast and break things' fosters.

mistermann 7y ago
"Trivializing modern medicine" seems inconsistent with what I've read here, can you quote the text where someone has done this?
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  Nobody wants to respond to your attempts at sealioning. Quoting text to you isn't going to change your mind or behavior. Everything you've written here is inconsistent and contradictory, and you desperately try to derail the conversation and change the subject whenever anyone points that out, then you run away when you realize you've painted yourself into a corner and are getting called on it. Just look at how many downvotes and flags you're getting, and how many of your postings are light colored, dead, and hidden. You're well on your way to a shadow ban. I wonder how long it will take you to figure it out that the only people replying to you have "showdead" set to true, because they love to see you floundering. If somebody's paying you by the hour for trolling, then they certainly are not getting their money's worth, because the moderation system is working, as the text in your posts becomes lighter and lighter until your posts are hidden and nobody sees them, thankfully. Go back to Gamergate where you came from, mistermann.

ALittleLight 7y ago

Again, nobody is saying that ventilator boot camp graduates should replace doctors. If there is a concern that there will be more people who need ventilators than we have medical professionals to operate ventilators - then the answer is that we need to quickly increase numbers of ventilator-operators - even if they are substandard. Perhaps you think our capacity won't be overwhelmed. Then it would make perfect sense not to bother training amateur operators. If you think an amateur operator is worse than no operator, I'd like to see your evidence. If all you have is your intuition then my intuition is that you're wrong.

omar_a1 7y ago
No, it's that I'm aware that "ventilator bootcamps" would be a resounding failure that would kill more people than it saves. Going from zero to medical professional - not a doctor, just someone who can perform invasive medical procedures without killing a large number of people - isn't 30 days of work. Ignoring that reality will recklessly endanger people's lives. If we're talking veterinarians, dentists, nurses, residents, MDs in unrelated specialties - then sure! They actually have the requisite knowlege and manual dexterity to cross-train. But going from, say SWE to ventilator operator, is not a 30 day crash course. > If you think an amateur operator is worse than no operator, I'd like to see your evidence. If all you have is your intuition then my intuition is that you're wrong. Because then you end up wasting a life and keeping a ventilator occupied, when there are much more efficient ways to kill patients that don't involve misusing a ventilator. Former scientist, including (lab side) FDA trials. Medicine is complicated. Even sterile technique, to make sure you don't inadvertently give your patient a life-threatening infection in the process of "helping" them, can take years to get right. This is true of the most routine aspects of any kind of medical work. But, do tell: since my "intuition" is so obviously wrong, I want to hear all about your empirical research. Or let's just start with your credentials, medical or otherwise.
- ALittleLight 7y ago
  Earlier in this thread it's stipulated that the bottleneck is not the number of ventilators but the trained people to operate them. As such, training more operators is an obvious solution, and allowing the new operators to be substandard will mean we can get more operators faster. This pretty much dissolves your only real objection, that we'd be keeping a ventilator occupied that would otherwise be in use. Nope. The solution to a deficit of ventilators is producing more - not letting people die without them. Generally, you are trying to invent reasons and restrictions to make trying to train ventilator-operators seem like a bad idea rather than understanding or advancing how the idea might be viable. An example of this is how you acknowledge that training other medical adjacent professionals (e.g. vetrenarians) would likely work. Great, you agree the idea could work. If you expect that our capacity will be overwhelmed then presumably you think we should training additional operators. Instead of reaching that conclusion you imagine reasons to object to the idea though. A SWE would likely be worse than a vet after a bootcamp. That's a good reason to have some entry requirements to the bootcamp and those requirements could be relaxed or strengthened depending on where we expect demand to be in 30 days relative to supply. A SWE through a 30-day bootcamp would likely be better than nothing. The other main constraint you've imagined is that they would need to save more people than they kill to be worthwhile. No, they'd need to save more people than would die without them. If it would be better to just struggle to breathe than have an amateur operator, that would be an argument against them. Your credentials, whatever they are, haven't equipped you to clearly communicate your reasons for opposing this idea. As I mentioned, it seems like you actually support some version of it.

mistermann 7y ago

The number of people on here perceiving or claiming that people are trivializing modern medicine, when their actual words say nothing of the kind, may also be unhelpful.

omar_a1 7y ago
Claiming that untrained staff could administer a ventilator from a 30 day bootcamp fits under that definition.
- jjeaff 7y ago
  Are you medically trained in the use of a ventilator? If not, I don't see how you could make that judgment either.
  - omar_a1 7y ago
    No, and I'm not a brain surgeon either, so I suppose I can't claim you aren't qualified to perform brain surgery, using that logic. Better scrub up! But if you're going to claim the contrary, I take it that you have a wealth of experience administering ventilation. For the record, I've worked in fields tangential to medicine, including lab research for FDA trials and health tech. I may not be qualified to operate a ventilator, but I'm experienced enough to understand the technical skill gap between a non-invasive procedure and an invasive one. And ventilation falls into the latter category.
- mistermann 7y ago
  Perhaps I missed it, could you quote the text of that claim, please?
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    Don't anyone bother replying to this obvious sealioning troll technique. He has no intention of carrying out any kind of sincere argument, and his politeness is totally fake: he has no respect for anyone he's arguing with, he's just trying to waste everyone's time. Of course he saw it, but he didn't like what he saw, so now he's pretending to have missed it on purpose, so repeating the facts he's ignoring won't make one bit of difference, and is just the two steps backwards he wants. Notice how he always tries to repeat this same pattern in so many other postings, and don't reply to any of his attempts at trolling, except to explicitly point out what he's doing. And remember to flag him every time he does it, please!