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Engineering in the traditional sense plays very little role in modern defense systems. The overriding concern is profit: How can we extract the most money from

Engineering in the traditional sense plays very little role in modern defense systems. The overriding concern is profit: How can we extract the most money from the DoD? Good engineering that avoids recurring costs is discouraged in favor of gee-whiz technology that's easy to sell but expensive to build and maintain. The icing on the cake is that bids no longer matter; the largest contractors always underbid to get the contract then send bills that are 2x, 4x or 10x the bid, knowing they have the DoD over a barrel. The solution for this nonsense is competition. Real, honest, open, transparent competition. Combined with laws that dictate refusal to pay in excess of the bid, instant scrapping of programs that exceed cost estimates, and a 10-year timeout window between when people in DoD leadership can transition out and get jobs with DoD contractors.

ceejayoz 7y ago
> instant scrapping of programs that exceed cost estimates So you're gonna build 75% of an aircraft carrier, and... then what?
- jakear 7y ago
  Realize you’ve screwed your self over for underbidding and not do it again?
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    Given the timeframes on a project like an aircraft carrier, both sides are equally screwed here.
    - jakear 7y ago
      Better to screw both sides than only screw the military/taxpayers as is.
- burlesona 7y ago
  It’s possible to put performance guarantees / insurance etc. into contracts such that if the contractor cannot build the entire thing within some percentage of budget then the entire cost is refunded, and the contractor is left with scrap metal.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    That sounds like a great way to make sure no company ever bids to build an aircraft carrier.
    - Analemma_ 7y ago
      Then it's a wide open field for a company who can do it to get the contract at whatever price they want. See how markets work?
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        How many companies are there with shipbuilding competence and the ability to absorb $10B risk for a decade?
TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
How often does a “competitive” bidding process for being handed a temporary monopoly work out? The competition flies out the window the moment the contract is signed. What if the Navy builds the ships itself?
hwillis 7y ago
> Engineering in the traditional sense plays very little role in modern defense systems. The overriding concern is profit: How can we extract the most money from the DoD? Good engineering that avoids recurring costs is discouraged in favor of gee-whiz technology that's easy to sell but expensive to build and maintain. The icing on the cake is that bids no longer matter; the largest contractors always underbid to get the contract then send bills that are 2x, 4x or 10x the bid, knowing they have the DoD over a barrel. As a government contractor, I agree and fully endorse this. > The solution for this nonsense is competition. Real, honest, open, transparent competition. Combined with laws that dictate refusal to pay in excess of the bid, instant scrapping of programs that exceed cost estimates, and a 10-year timeout window between when people in DoD leadership can transition out and get jobs with DoD contractors. ...And I disagree with this fully. The solution is for the government to return to in-housing, relax the rules they hold themselves to, and aggressively expand their own capabilities. The things the government makes are far and away superior to anything in the private sector. At its best, the government does it better, cheaper, and longer-lasting than anyone else. Real competition for the things the government needs done is just not possible. Roughly 50% of contracts are based on just flat-out lies, and it's even worse for shitty contracts like SBIRs. I'll tell you, I have seen some real dumb shit. The BUYER needs technical expertise in order to not get ripped off, and if you already have expertise it makes much more sense to go the extra miles and build it yourself. The market for government contracts would need to be way more lucrative to allow companies to fail honestly, and even then, why would they when lying is more profitable? Plus, this doesn't even cover the worst part of large contracts, which is that they're effectively negotiated by politics, either congress itself or inter-DoD factionalism. That, more than anything else, creates large-scale rot.
- dreamcompiler 7y ago
  I have tried many times to break into government contracting and always failed. It's always one of two problems: The award is too small to cover the cost of the proposal and reporting paperwork (e.g. SBIR) or the award is huge and you need a full-time team whose sole job is to navigate all the red tape. And like you said, the people evaluating proposals often have no background in the field, so proxies for competence are used like slickness of marketing materials, whom you know in the organization, or how good-looking you are (not kidding). After I graduated I thought I wanted to work for NASA. Then I found out most NASA employees spend most of their day not inventing or building things, but managing contractors who did the actual work. I guess I'm saying I like your suggestion better than mine.

ceejayoz 7y ago

> instant scrapping of programs that exceed cost estimates So you're gonna build 75% of an aircraft carrier, and... then what?

jakear 7y ago
Realize you’ve screwed your self over for underbidding and not do it again?
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Given the timeframes on a project like an aircraft carrier, both sides are equally screwed here.
  - jakear 7y ago
    Better to screw both sides than only screw the military/taxpayers as is.
burlesona 7y ago
It’s possible to put performance guarantees / insurance etc. into contracts such that if the contractor cannot build the entire thing within some percentage of budget then the entire cost is refunded, and the contractor is left with scrap metal.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  That sounds like a great way to make sure no company ever bids to build an aircraft carrier.
  - Analemma_ 7y ago
    Then it's a wide open field for a company who can do it to get the contract at whatever price they want. See how markets work?
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      How many companies are there with shipbuilding competence and the ability to absorb $10B risk for a decade?

TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago

How often does a “competitive” bidding process for being handed a temporary monopoly work out? The competition flies out the window the moment the contract is signed. What if the Navy builds the ships itself?

hwillis 7y ago

> Engineering in the traditional sense plays very little role in modern defense systems. The overriding concern is profit: How can we extract the most money from the DoD? Good engineering that avoids recurring costs is discouraged in favor of gee-whiz technology that's easy to sell but expensive to build and maintain. The icing on the cake is that bids no longer matter; the largest contractors always underbid to get the contract then send bills that are 2x, 4x or 10x the bid, knowing they have the DoD over a barrel. As a government contractor, I agree and fully endorse this. > The solution for this nonsense is competition. Real, honest, open, transparent competition. Combined with laws that dictate refusal to pay in excess of the bid, instant scrapping of programs that exceed cost estimates, and a 10-year timeout window between when people in DoD leadership can transition out and get jobs with DoD contractors. ...And I disagree with this fully. The solution is for the government to return to in-housing, relax the rules they hold themselves to, and aggressively expand their own capabilities. The things the government makes are far and away superior to anything in the private sector. At its best, the government does it better, cheaper, and longer-lasting than anyone else. Real competition for the things the government needs done is just not possible. Roughly 50% of contracts are based on just flat-out lies, and it's even worse for shitty contracts like SBIRs. I'll tell you, I have seen some real dumb shit. The BUYER needs technical expertise in order to not get ripped off, and if you already have expertise it makes much more sense to go the extra miles and build it yourself. The market for government contracts would need to be way more lucrative to allow companies to fail honestly, and even then, why would they when lying is more profitable? Plus, this doesn't even cover the worst part of large contracts, which is that they're effectively negotiated by politics, either congress itself or inter-DoD factionalism. That, more than anything else, creates large-scale rot.

dreamcompiler 7y ago
I have tried many times to break into government contracting and always failed. It's always one of two problems: The award is too small to cover the cost of the proposal and reporting paperwork (e.g. SBIR) or the award is huge and you need a full-time team whose sole job is to navigate all the red tape. And like you said, the people evaluating proposals often have no background in the field, so proxies for competence are used like slickness of marketing materials, whom you know in the organization, or how good-looking you are (not kidding). After I graduated I thought I wanted to work for NASA. Then I found out most NASA employees spend most of their day not inventing or building things, but managing contractors who did the actual work. I guess I'm saying I like your suggestion better than mine.