9 ms·

Saudis suspected of phone spying campaign in US

238 points by pulisse 7y ago

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Natsu 7y ago
Meanwhile, everyone else is tracking movements for Coronavirus, so if we get a response, I expect them to say the same thing.
- nieve 7y ago
  It might be hard to sell the idea that you're tracking people in another country for that. The data is on a miniscule number of peope in the US and you're missing a lot of data you'd need for a reasonable analysis. All of which is to say yeah, they're probably going to.
  - ameen 7y ago
    They could say they were tracking their citizens well-being
  - dillonmckay 7y ago
    Is that not the point of the 5 eyes? As long as other countries spy on our citizens, and share the data with our government, there is no problem!
nyolfen 7y ago
how granular is ss7 psl data? if it's decades old i suspect it isn't gps coords or anything (not diminishing the seriousness of this; mostly curious about whether this is something the rest of us should be worrying about)
- arkadiyt 7y ago
  From the article: "users could probably have been tracked on a map to within hundreds of metres of accuracy in a city."
  - gruez 7y ago
    >within hundreds of metres of accuracy in a city or basically a few city blocks.
- rsync 7y ago
  "how granular is ss7 psl data?" It's not based on physical distance or geography - it is based on the cell "tower". Basically, SS7 will tell you which cellular base station the mobile handset is registered on. There are easily accessible, public lookups of the location of all of those "cell towers".
  - chiph 7y ago
    I use a micro/femto cell at home because of poor reception from the big towers. If they had access to those records, they could locate me to the street address (needed for E-911 service) now that I'm under a stay-home order.
    - SpikeDad 7y ago
      Doesn't WiFi calling render microcells irrelevant?
      - chiph 7y ago
        Most likely. But I don't have a phone with that service, so this is what I've got. ;)
brenden2 7y ago
Get in line Saudis, there are a lot of people doing phone spying campaigns in the US.
arkadiyt 7y ago
In addition to letting you read someone's location, SS7 lets you intercept their SMS messages. This is used by, for instance, criminal groups to intercept 2fa codes or go through SMS-based password reset flows and log into peoples' bank accounts: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mbzvxv/criminals-hackers-ss7-uk-banks-metro-bank https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mbzvxv/criminals-hackers-...
- vbezhenar 7y ago
  Almost everyone have a smartphone. Bank app is much more secure than SMS, because HTTPS allows to encrypt information all the way from bank server to the end device. It's possible to create a much more pleasant UI with single touch rather than typing that OTP. And it's even possible to create more secure solution by requiring fingerprint. And if Apple and Google would implement some kind of universal solution, every website could utilize this technology making 2FA more secure and usable. It's kind of strange that we're still using SMS so widely. Also SMS is not that cheap, while push is free. Sure, SMS is fine as a fallback option, just like voice call is fine as a fallback option for SMS, but that's about it.
  - tehlike 7y ago
    It's getting more ubiquitous with touch id. At least in the common case.
  - snazz 7y ago
    Sign In with Apple and Google’s equivalent are supposed to be the solution to both passwords and 2FA.
  - closeparen 7y ago
    Are there any US consumer bank accounts that can be configured for 2FA other than SMS? In the brokerage space, Robinhood accepts TOTP and Fidelity accepts Symantec VIP (proprietary TOTP-alike). But I don't know of any checking or savings accounts that can be protected this way.
    - 7y ago
ssssss777 7y ago
This isn't spying and the US would not be the only country involved. Carriers track their own subscribers' locations no matter which network they are on. Inter-carrier roaming agreements require this ability. So it appears the Saudis has a new use for it. The increased focus on SS7 security actually increases reliance on inter-carrier PSI. PSI is sent to the last known serving MSC to retrieve the number of minutes since last network contact. This info is used to enable a velocity check against a network attached request coming from a new country. It's this type of check that combats SMS interception.
- neonate 7y ago
  I assume MSC is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_switching_centre_server https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_switching_centre_server. What is PSI? Edit: thanks!
  - lmz 7y ago
    From the article: "Provide Subscriber Information SS7 message"
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- dontbenebby 7y ago
  >This isn't spying Huh? Care to explain this odd take? Obtaining information about someone's location w/o their permission, by agents of a foreign power, seems pretty textbook spying.
mirimir 7y ago
This is rather a "man bites dog" title ;) Edit: It's also hardly worth reporting, or at least, with the sense of outrage that I get from it. I mean, anyone who cared would realize that the Saudis would track and snoop on cellphone users, no matter where they were. And so nobody who cared about that would use their Saudi phone. They'd just buy a phone at Walmart or wherever.
- dontbenebby 7y ago
  >anyone who cared would realize that the Saudis would track and snoop on cellphone users, no matter where they were. And so nobody who cared about that would use their Saudi phone. They'd just buy a phone at Walmart or wherever. That's a very victim blame-y take. Most people are not HN readers and have no idea what SS7 is. Even if they know about cell tower tracking they'd probably expect that info would not be handed over by the USA to KSA.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    OK, so I'm not Saudi, and perhaps I'm way off base here. But I find it hard to imagine that Saudis -- or at least Saudis who'd be traveling in the US -- wouldn't assume that their government is tracking and monitoring them. Indeed, I'd expect that awareness to be more common in Saudi Arabia than in the US, because the US at least pretends to honor human rights. Also, an expectation of surveillance doesn't depend on understanding the technology.
    - dontbenebby 7y ago
      >OK, so I'm not Saudi, and perhaps I'm way off base here. But I find it hard to imagine that Saudis -- or at least Saudis who'd be traveling in the US -- wouldn't assume that their government is tracking and monitoring them. Yes, "they should expect they will have their human rights violated on US soil and it's on them to buy a burner" is off base. Anyone legally in the United States (including tourists) gets constitutional protections. You can expect whatever you want but illegal spying on US soil by an authoritarian regime is absolutely a news story. Every embassy is a spy outpost, but they usually leave people who aren't at least semi-public figures alone. Then again, maybe everyone is abusing SS7 and KSA is just who got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
Why the heck are the Saudi's still considered 'allies' of the US. Besides the long-running terrorism concerns, there's the murder of Khashoggi, them spying not just on their own citizens but also on US ones, and they are currently waging a war against our domestic oil producers. With 'friends' like that who needs enemies?
- kiba 7y ago
  Everybody spies on each other. That isn't particularly notable.
  - ShorsHammer 7y ago
    True, but how many countries behead people for sorcery and witchcraft? [0] It's mindboggling how easily people will let such things slide from our allies while mindlessly droning on about the far lesser actions of those who are perceived to be enemies. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Saudi_Arabia#Witchcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Saudi_Ar...
- SpikeDad 7y ago
  Because a) oil and b) Trump properties making his kids (and himself of course) billions.
  - vuln 7y ago
    Wow I didn’t realize Trump was the first President to snuggle up with the Saudis. Oh wait he wasn’t. Unless Trump was alive and President in 1945. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia%E2%80%93United_States_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia%E2%80%93United_St...
    - mirimir 7y ago
      Yeah, W Bush went to school with Saudi royals. And walked hand in hand with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah.[0] 0) https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.q7OAFNIavlBvJwiRqO0s-QHaD4%26pid%3DApi&f=1 https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...
chirau 7y ago
What is the issue here? Does the US not spy on pretty much every other country and its people?
- DangitBobby 7y ago
  They probably don't like that very much either.
dontbenebby 7y ago
Only the Saudis?
aussieguy1234 7y ago
Looks like as long as the victims stop using their Saudi Sim cards, they won't be able to be tracked because this relies on roaming. Saudi carriers might mysteriously offer "special exclusive roaming deals" so they can keep tracking
flerchin 7y ago
Oddly specific use-case. This only tracks the location of folks with Saudi sim-cards using roaming in the US. Even then, only down to the tower. Now that the guardian has blown the lid off, I expect this is largely worthless for them now.

238 points by pulisse 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Meanwhile, everyone else is tracking movements for Coronavirus, so if we get a response, I expect them to say the same thing.

nieve 7y ago
It might be hard to sell the idea that you're tracking people in another country for that. The data is on a miniscule number of peope in the US and you're missing a lot of data you'd need for a reasonable analysis. All of which is to say yeah, they're probably going to.
- ameen 7y ago
  They could say they were tracking their citizens well-being
- dillonmckay 7y ago
  Is that not the point of the 5 eyes? As long as other countries spy on our citizens, and share the data with our government, there is no problem!

nyolfen 7y ago

how granular is ss7 psl data? if it's decades old i suspect it isn't gps coords or anything (not diminishing the seriousness of this; mostly curious about whether this is something the rest of us should be worrying about)

arkadiyt 7y ago
From the article: "users could probably have been tracked on a map to within hundreds of metres of accuracy in a city."
- gruez 7y ago
  >within hundreds of metres of accuracy in a city or basically a few city blocks.
rsync 7y ago
"how granular is ss7 psl data?" It's not based on physical distance or geography - it is based on the cell "tower". Basically, SS7 will tell you which cellular base station the mobile handset is registered on. There are easily accessible, public lookups of the location of all of those "cell towers".
- chiph 7y ago
  I use a micro/femto cell at home because of poor reception from the big towers. If they had access to those records, they could locate me to the street address (needed for E-911 service) now that I'm under a stay-home order.
  - SpikeDad 7y ago
    Doesn't WiFi calling render microcells irrelevant?
    - chiph 7y ago
      Most likely. But I don't have a phone with that service, so this is what I've got. ;)

brenden2 7y ago

Get in line Saudis, there are a lot of people doing phone spying campaigns in the US.

arkadiyt 7y ago

In addition to letting you read someone's location, SS7 lets you intercept their SMS messages. This is used by, for instance, criminal groups to intercept 2fa codes or go through SMS-based password reset flows and log into peoples' bank accounts: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mbzvxv/criminals-hackers-ss7-uk-banks-metro-bank https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mbzvxv/criminals-hackers-...

vbezhenar 7y ago
Almost everyone have a smartphone. Bank app is much more secure than SMS, because HTTPS allows to encrypt information all the way from bank server to the end device. It's possible to create a much more pleasant UI with single touch rather than typing that OTP. And it's even possible to create more secure solution by requiring fingerprint. And if Apple and Google would implement some kind of universal solution, every website could utilize this technology making 2FA more secure and usable. It's kind of strange that we're still using SMS so widely. Also SMS is not that cheap, while push is free. Sure, SMS is fine as a fallback option, just like voice call is fine as a fallback option for SMS, but that's about it.
- tehlike 7y ago
  It's getting more ubiquitous with touch id. At least in the common case.
- snazz 7y ago
  Sign In with Apple and Google’s equivalent are supposed to be the solution to both passwords and 2FA.
- closeparen 7y ago
  Are there any US consumer bank accounts that can be configured for 2FA other than SMS? In the brokerage space, Robinhood accepts TOTP and Fidelity accepts Symantec VIP (proprietary TOTP-alike). But I don't know of any checking or savings accounts that can be protected this way.
  - 7y ago

ssssss777 7y ago

This isn't spying and the US would not be the only country involved. Carriers track their own subscribers' locations no matter which network they are on. Inter-carrier roaming agreements require this ability. So it appears the Saudis has a new use for it. The increased focus on SS7 security actually increases reliance on inter-carrier PSI. PSI is sent to the last known serving MSC to retrieve the number of minutes since last network contact. This info is used to enable a velocity check against a network attached request coming from a new country. It's this type of check that combats SMS interception.

neonate 7y ago
I assume MSC is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_switching_centre_server https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_switching_centre_server. What is PSI? Edit: thanks!
- lmz 7y ago
  From the article: "Provide Subscriber Information SS7 message"
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
dontbenebby 7y ago
>This isn't spying Huh? Care to explain this odd take? Obtaining information about someone's location w/o their permission, by agents of a foreign power, seems pretty textbook spying.

mirimir 7y ago

This is rather a "man bites dog" title ;) Edit: It's also hardly worth reporting, or at least, with the sense of outrage that I get from it. I mean, anyone who cared would realize that the Saudis would track and snoop on cellphone users, no matter where they were. And so nobody who cared about that would use their Saudi phone. They'd just buy a phone at Walmart or wherever.

dontbenebby 7y ago
>anyone who cared would realize that the Saudis would track and snoop on cellphone users, no matter where they were. And so nobody who cared about that would use their Saudi phone. They'd just buy a phone at Walmart or wherever. That's a very victim blame-y take. Most people are not HN readers and have no idea what SS7 is. Even if they know about cell tower tracking they'd probably expect that info would not be handed over by the USA to KSA.
- mirimir 7y ago
  OK, so I'm not Saudi, and perhaps I'm way off base here. But I find it hard to imagine that Saudis -- or at least Saudis who'd be traveling in the US -- wouldn't assume that their government is tracking and monitoring them. Indeed, I'd expect that awareness to be more common in Saudi Arabia than in the US, because the US at least pretends to honor human rights. Also, an expectation of surveillance doesn't depend on understanding the technology.
  - dontbenebby 7y ago
    >OK, so I'm not Saudi, and perhaps I'm way off base here. But I find it hard to imagine that Saudis -- or at least Saudis who'd be traveling in the US -- wouldn't assume that their government is tracking and monitoring them. Yes, "they should expect they will have their human rights violated on US soil and it's on them to buy a burner" is off base. Anyone legally in the United States (including tourists) gets constitutional protections. You can expect whatever you want but illegal spying on US soil by an authoritarian regime is absolutely a news story. Every embassy is a spy outpost, but they usually leave people who aren't at least semi-public figures alone. Then again, maybe everyone is abusing SS7 and KSA is just who got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

hn_throwaway_99 7y ago

Why the heck are the Saudi's still considered 'allies' of the US. Besides the long-running terrorism concerns, there's the murder of Khashoggi, them spying not just on their own citizens but also on US ones, and they are currently waging a war against our domestic oil producers. With 'friends' like that who needs enemies?

kiba 7y ago
Everybody spies on each other. That isn't particularly notable.
- ShorsHammer 7y ago
  True, but how many countries behead people for sorcery and witchcraft? [0] It's mindboggling how easily people will let such things slide from our allies while mindlessly droning on about the far lesser actions of those who are perceived to be enemies. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Saudi_Arabia#Witchcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Saudi_Ar...
SpikeDad 7y ago
Because a) oil and b) Trump properties making his kids (and himself of course) billions.
- vuln 7y ago
  Wow I didn’t realize Trump was the first President to snuggle up with the Saudis. Oh wait he wasn’t. Unless Trump was alive and President in 1945. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia%E2%80%93United_States_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia%E2%80%93United_St...
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Yeah, W Bush went to school with Saudi royals. And walked hand in hand with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah.[0] 0) https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.q7OAFNIavlBvJwiRqO0s-QHaD4%26pid%3DApi&f=1 https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...

chirau 7y ago

What is the issue here? Does the US not spy on pretty much every other country and its people?

DangitBobby 7y ago
They probably don't like that very much either.

dontbenebby 7y ago

Only the Saudis?

aussieguy1234 7y ago

Looks like as long as the victims stop using their Saudi Sim cards, they won't be able to be tracked because this relies on roaming. Saudi carriers might mysteriously offer "special exclusive roaming deals" so they can keep tracking

flerchin 7y ago

Oddly specific use-case. This only tracks the location of folks with Saudi sim-cards using roaming in the US. Even then, only down to the tower. Now that the guardian has blown the lid off, I expect this is largely worthless for them now.