3 ms·

i can't help but feel that this kind of hatred is only derived from a lack of understanding of css. particularly the primary case for floats. admittedly a bit c

i can't help but feel that this kind of hatred is only derived from a lack of understanding of css. particularly the primary case for floats. admittedly a bit clumsy, they do whatever you ask them just fine. it has it's quirks. though considering there are only a very few contemporary designs css couldn't achieve, surely it's doing something right. that's not to say css couldn't be improved. but to think it takes "magic of the deepest kind to implement what should be simple", as one commenter says, seems like ignorance to me.

andybak 16y ago
With all due respect you either are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome or you haven't given much thought to how one could design a text-based format for layout. Not in the feverish imaginings of a thousand tortured opium dreams would one design something like CSS-P. Try sitting down with someone who has never used CSS and teaching them how to do a simple 3 column layout with background colours and a header and footer that works reasonably well across the three major browsers. Scratch that - sit down and explain it to me. I gave up and hired someone else to do it.
- catshirt 16y ago
  "Try sitting down with someone who has never..." sorry, are you saying that this frustration is most prevalent in people who don't have a strong grasp on css? isn't that exactly my point? what precisely are you trying to argue? that floats and columns aren't perfect? allow me to reiterate a few of my concessions: "that's not to say css couldn't be improved", "it has it's quirks", and "admittedly a bit clumsy". with all due respect, perhaps you're either suffering the effects of mere exposure or self-victimization.
  - TheSOB88 16y ago
    All we're saying is that CSS was haphazardly thrown together, wasn't well thought out, and makes hard that which should be easy. In short, it sucks.
- tptacek 16y ago
  body { #header { @include column(24, true); } #right { @include column(4); } #center { @include column(14); } #left { @include column(6, true); } } That's Compass/Blueprint. Complaining about CSS is like complaining that the register names in x86 assembly have too many 'e's and 'x's in them. Don't write CSS; write something that compiles down to it. People argued about macro assemblers. Then they argued about C compilers. Then they argued about high level languages. People are always going to argue with replacements to technologies they've grown expert in. That doesn't mean you have to listen to them.
- blauwbilgorgel 16y ago
  How about: Explain valid Doctypes and rendering modes then: <style> * { margin: 0; padding: 0; } .columnwrap { width: 960px; margin: 0px auto; overflow: hidden; background: url("faux-columns-red-green-blue.png") repeat-y; } .col1 { float: left; width: 200px; } .col2 { float: left; width: 500px; } .col3 { float: left; width: 260px; } </style> You could create 90%+ of the websites with that and even IE6 would know it, because that's how floating designs were made 5/6 years ago.
wvenable 16y ago
I'm constantly working in HTML and CSS for my day job and floats cause the most problems and yet they're also the only way to create some complex layouts. Honestly, to this day, I don't know all the rules about floats and most of the time I end up doing cross browser trial and error until I get them to work right. That is not good design.
- lwhi 16y ago
  You need to learn how to clear floats, 'overflow: hidden / overflow: visible' are your friends. I work with HTML and CSS constantly and rarely have problems with floating elements.
romaniv 16y ago
i can't help but feel that this kind of hatred is only derived from a lack of understanding of css. The problem of element layout is a relatively simple one. It should not require some kind of in-depth "understanding" and extensive research. That's pretty much the point of the article, and I tend to agree. CSS does layouts badly, and it should include dedicated tools to deal with the common issues. Right now, it pretty much relies on a bunch of hacks. The problem with those hacks is that they don’t allow for easy modification or code reuse. Nesting one complex layout inside of another is most likely to break both of them. It always seemed to me that the people who defend CSS as "good enough" simply stick with a couple of mostly-working solutions and never try to design their websites exactly as they see it. That’s where the real pain starts. Something that takes five minutes with tables + css takes hours of reading and experiments with a "pure" layout. The sheer amout of articles about multi-column layousts is tribute to how complex the problem is.
- catshirt 16y ago
  "The problem of element layout is a relatively simple one. It should not require some kind of in-depth "understanding" and extensive research. That's pretty much the point of the article, and I tend to agree." maybe my comment was ill addressed, then. i agree with this. my sole intention was to express that once you get over it's issues, you can write css just as fluently as anything else. perhaps what confused me is that the article is expressing a sentiment that's been common for nearly a decade.
  - lwhi 16y ago
    I completely agree with you. It's not that hard - but it requires effort. If you continue to believe that CSS is an abomination and can't be tamed - you'll remain unable to use it.
    - romaniv 16y ago
      Everything requires effort to use. Question is, how much. The effort to learn and use some technology should be comparable with the complexity of the problem it solves.

andybak 16y ago

With all due respect you either are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome or you haven't given much thought to how one could design a text-based format for layout. Not in the feverish imaginings of a thousand tortured opium dreams would one design something like CSS-P. Try sitting down with someone who has never used CSS and teaching them how to do a simple 3 column layout with background colours and a header and footer that works reasonably well across the three major browsers. Scratch that - sit down and explain it to me. I gave up and hired someone else to do it.

catshirt 16y ago
"Try sitting down with someone who has never..." sorry, are you saying that this frustration is most prevalent in people who don't have a strong grasp on css? isn't that exactly my point? what precisely are you trying to argue? that floats and columns aren't perfect? allow me to reiterate a few of my concessions: "that's not to say css couldn't be improved", "it has it's quirks", and "admittedly a bit clumsy". with all due respect, perhaps you're either suffering the effects of mere exposure or self-victimization.
- TheSOB88 16y ago
  All we're saying is that CSS was haphazardly thrown together, wasn't well thought out, and makes hard that which should be easy. In short, it sucks.
tptacek 16y ago
body { #header { @include column(24, true); } #right { @include column(4); } #center { @include column(14); } #left { @include column(6, true); } } That's Compass/Blueprint. Complaining about CSS is like complaining that the register names in x86 assembly have too many 'e's and 'x's in them. Don't write CSS; write something that compiles down to it. People argued about macro assemblers. Then they argued about C compilers. Then they argued about high level languages. People are always going to argue with replacements to technologies they've grown expert in. That doesn't mean you have to listen to them.
blauwbilgorgel 16y ago
How about: Explain valid Doctypes and rendering modes then: <style> * { margin: 0; padding: 0; } .columnwrap { width: 960px; margin: 0px auto; overflow: hidden; background: url("faux-columns-red-green-blue.png") repeat-y; } .col1 { float: left; width: 200px; } .col2 { float: left; width: 500px; } .col3 { float: left; width: 260px; } </style> You could create 90%+ of the websites with that and even IE6 would know it, because that's how floating designs were made 5/6 years ago.

wvenable 16y ago

I'm constantly working in HTML and CSS for my day job and floats cause the most problems and yet they're also the only way to create some complex layouts. Honestly, to this day, I don't know all the rules about floats and most of the time I end up doing cross browser trial and error until I get them to work right. That is not good design.

lwhi 16y ago
You need to learn how to clear floats, 'overflow: hidden / overflow: visible' are your friends. I work with HTML and CSS constantly and rarely have problems with floating elements.

romaniv 16y ago

i can't help but feel that this kind of hatred is only derived from a lack of understanding of css. The problem of element layout is a relatively simple one. It should not require some kind of in-depth "understanding" and extensive research. That's pretty much the point of the article, and I tend to agree. CSS does layouts badly, and it should include dedicated tools to deal with the common issues. Right now, it pretty much relies on a bunch of hacks. The problem with those hacks is that they don’t allow for easy modification or code reuse. Nesting one complex layout inside of another is most likely to break both of them. It always seemed to me that the people who defend CSS as "good enough" simply stick with a couple of mostly-working solutions and never try to design their websites exactly as they see it. That’s where the real pain starts. Something that takes five minutes with tables + css takes hours of reading and experiments with a "pure" layout. The sheer amout of articles about multi-column layousts is tribute to how complex the problem is.

catshirt 16y ago
"The problem of element layout is a relatively simple one. It should not require some kind of in-depth "understanding" and extensive research. That's pretty much the point of the article, and I tend to agree." maybe my comment was ill addressed, then. i agree with this. my sole intention was to express that once you get over it's issues, you can write css just as fluently as anything else. perhaps what confused me is that the article is expressing a sentiment that's been common for nearly a decade.
- lwhi 16y ago
  I completely agree with you. It's not that hard - but it requires effort. If you continue to believe that CSS is an abomination and can't be tamed - you'll remain unable to use it.
  - romaniv 16y ago
    Everything requires effort to use. Question is, how much. The effort to learn and use some technology should be comparable with the complexity of the problem it solves.