6 ms·

I'm sorry, $60? I'm all in favor of fair remuneration for an excellent piece of work, but this is really too much. $30 would be much more fair. (And it doesn't

I'm sorry, $60? I'm all in favor of fair remuneration for an excellent piece of work, but this is really too much. $30 would be much more fair. (And it doesn't matter if it's a physical book or e-book, the cost of printing nowadays is ca. $1 for each 100 pages.)

paedubucher 7y ago
Maybe the others here in the forum can tell me, why I should risk buying the pre-order (30% off), when I have no chance of reading a sample chapter yet. (I'm actually thinking of doing this, because I'm looking for a good second book on C after having worked through K&R before.) When I see that Brian W. Kernighan releases a book, it's an instant buy for me.
- paedubucher 7y ago
  Nah, fuqit, I'll just buy it ;-) NoStarch never let me down so far, and paying USD 60 (or 40, or whatever) is such a marginal difference for a book you're going to spends dozens of hours on.
  - clarry 7y ago
    > for a book you're going to spends dozens of hours on. Is that a feature? I'm constantly frustrated by books that use many words to say little. Wasting hours on such books tends to be negative value, and I shouldn't buy them even for two cents..
    - catilac 7y ago
      I have the same frustration, though in this case I think given the author's expertise I imagine all the words actually contain much wisdom. Hopefully!
    - dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago
      This is an interesting issue. I remember when I started studying discrete math, I actually bought two books. One was by Ross, and it's the one I prefer, but at places it was a bit terse. So when I had trouble understanding something right away, I looked at the same subject in Susanna Epp's book and usually I could find a relevant explanation or example straight away, but in the long term I couldn't stand this verbose style. (By the way, both books cost $80, but you can buy used copies at 1/10.)
    - paedubucher 7y ago
      Working through a technical book of any substance, as opposed to just reading or skimming it, will take dozens of hours, no matter how terse or verbose the style is. The book is supposed to be around 270 pages, so verbosity probably won't be an issue. I am right now working through "Python Crash Course" as an intermediate Python programmer. I very quickly read through chapters 1-8 so far and did all the exercises (rather simple ones), just to make sure that I'm not missing out anything on the basics. In the last couple of chapters, I actually picked up two or three pieces of knowledge I wasn't aware of. I spent around five to ten hours on this so far. This approach sounds terribly inefficient. However, working through a beginner's book as an intermediate Python programmer, and only getting half a dozen of really new information out of it, gives me the confidence I need at this stage. So I don't consider it as a waste, but rather as an exercise in patience and repetition. Why am I telling you all this? Because I think people overrate the monetary costs of books.
      - clarry 7y ago
        I kind of agree with your point, with the caveat that I just don't want to spend much money if I'm not getting much out of it. I'd happily buy a book for 200 eur if I knew it's going to be worth my time. In the recent years, I've mostly regretted the time I spent on books. Life is short, free time is scarce, and there are so many other things I could be doing. In this case, I'm definitely curious about the book and would like to skim through it just to satisfy that curiosity, but I have my doubts as to whether I'll get much out of it (I've been writing C for 15 years and I do it professionally). Maybe there are gems of wisdom (or things I've overlooked) in it that would make it worthwhile, but it's possible I'd just regret the time and money spent :-(
    - rcseacord 7y ago
      This book has a very concise writing style. I really wanted to keep it small enough to carry on an airplane (when we are allowed to fly again). I'm really proud of the final product and very happy with the editing staff at No Starch who helped me produce a very polished product.
      - paedubucher 7y ago
        Thanks for the insight! I really appreciate when the authors interact with the community. Many books nowadays, also from NoStarch, are released as early access books. Your book does not run under the early access program, or at least not yet. Is this a decision made by you as an author? Or is the kind of book not really suited for early access? I could imagine that introductory books work well as early access books; readers could work through the first couple of chapters, while later chapters are still being written or refined. Just curious...
        rcseacord 7y ago
        No, I usually defer decisions concerning the marketing and availability of the book to the publisher. I try to stick to the areas where I'm actually a knowledgeable expert.
        billpollock 7y ago
        We're getting caught up on our Early Access titles. Our staff is very particular about what they release and they don't like to put chapters in until they feel like they're really final. Given the current world situation I'm making sure that we relax that policy a bit and you'll see more books moving into Early Access in the next 2 or 3 weeks. Just a little hectic around my company at the moment.
        paedubucher 7y ago
        My intention was really not putting pressure on the publisher as a buyer of this book. I rather wonder why certain books have an early access option and others don't. I probably won't be able to read it before July, anyway, because I have to finish my bachelor's degree first. But I think it's not a bad time for a financial contribution to my favorite tech book publisher, so I already bought the book "blindly".
- wmwragg 7y ago
  I've recommended this on here before, but I’ve found "Understanding and Using C Pointers" by Richard Reese, a really wonderful modern book on C.
- throwaway17_17 7y ago
  It is a risk to by the preorder sight unseen. If you are not familiar with author and his style you could end up feeling like you wasted that money. So until a preview chapter or similar is available I’ll through this link to Modern C, 2nd Ed by Gustedt. It has been well received and I thought Jens writing style was solid. I don’t know if it is the perfect second book to read on C, but it seems well paced and things are well explained. https://modernc.gforge.inria.fr/ https://modernc.gforge.inria.fr/
  - rcseacord 7y ago
    I'm checking with No Starch if we have plans to release a sample chapter of this book. There is a list of previous articles I've written including sample chapters from my previous books on Secure Codign in C and C++ and the CERT C Coding Standard here https://www.informit.com/authors/bio/3312572e-d904-45d5-afcd-389361c0f5af https://www.informit.com/authors/bio/3312572e-d904-45d5-afcd... Here is a newer article on Uninitialized Reads published by ACM https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3041020 https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3041020 Jens and I are both on the C Standards committee. I would definitely say that our books serve different markets.
    - throwaway17_17 7y ago
      I have your book on Secure Coding and I have the latest version of Jens’ book as well. I like both your style and his, in terms of writing style and presentation. If you think there is going to be a large difference in applicability and focus when comparing your ‘Effect C’ and Jens’ ‘Modern C’ I am kind of excited, not just to get your book, but also that even though some people would like to see C be relegated to the trash bin there is still some life left in a language I enjoy using.
ponow 7y ago
It's as fair that you can refuse to pay $60 as it is for the author to ask for it. It strikes me that most people who would pay $30 would also be willing pay $60 in this instance, as it's not as if many new C books are coming out nowadays. So I'm guessing that the author will do better at $60. Medieval notions of profit and the physical costs are mostly irrelevant, but the effort and expertise of the author are not.
- tzjmetron 7y ago
  It's not about the absolute cost. $60 in a developing country is a substantial sum of money.
  - jfkebwjsbx 7y ago
    So? Should we price everything according to developing countries? Then only those living there could produce things.
petee 7y ago
For 272 pages written by probably the best person to be writing modern C books, from a small publisher who is known for quality books, sixty dollars doesn't sound unreasonable at all
- ghostpepper 7y ago
  Not to be rude to the author but what makes him the best person to be writing modern C books?
  - rcseacord 7y ago
    So it's hard to say that I'm the best person to write a modern C book. A slightly lower bar might be, am I the best person who has actually written a modern C Book? Resume-wise, I've been writing C code since 1985, and I've been an expert on the C Standards Committee (WG14) since 2004. I've written two prior books on C Programming including "Secure Coding in C and C++" and "The CERT C Coding Standard". I also teach Secure Coding in C for NCC Group https://www.nccgroup.trust/us/our-services/cyber-security/security-training/secure-coding/ https://www.nccgroup.trust/us/our-services/cyber-security/se... and I also taught these topics to Computer Science undergraduates and graduate students at CMU for over a decade. So I think I have a good balance of technical skills and communications skills, but you know, pick up a copy and judge for yourself.
    - nrclark 7y ago
      If I buy a copy of your book, will you abuse your position to get constexpr into C? It would be a big improvement over complex macro magic. I'll buy an extra copy if you can get 'defer' in there too! Those two features would really be the bee's knees :)
      - rhexs 7y ago
        If you're looking for a low-level performance targeted language where anyone can add anything whatsoever, I've got great news! C++ already exists!
tzjmetron 7y ago
Yes, sadly unaffordable for people in developing countries such as myself.
cjg_ 7y ago
Get the ebook for $47 with a ebook 30% discount on their site? $33.
- billpollock 7y ago
  Use the coupon code PREORDER (posted on the book's page) and you get the print book + all DRM-free ebooks for US $42 (plus shipping costs)
agumonkey 7y ago
author had a few other books on secure programming maybe older books are cheaper
bla3 7y ago
In case you're interested in the book but can't afford it: it's off 30% until Apr 1 with THANKU30, see their main page.
beezle 7y ago
I have a 295 page book in production. The print cost for paper bound is $5.46 for case laminate $10.02. Contrary to what you may think, print costs are not going to limit $0. Quite the other way, they have risen over the past seven years from $4.72 and $9.82 (roughly inflation for the paper bound).
- kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
  2x in seven years is not inflation. This is what has annoyed me about pulp paperback fiction. They skyrocketed from $5 to $15 in 15 years. Then you can buy the eBook for $12 and feel like you're getting a "deal" on a product with near zero production costs.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
billpollock 7y ago
When you buy print books from us you get the DRM-free ebooks too. Amazon may ultimately discount this from the list price as they usually do but they are currently deprioritizing books due to the pandemic.
matvore 7y ago
Is it possible you don't need the book as much as the book's target audience, and that's why it seems overpriced?
readme 7y ago
I agree, that book can be replaced by reading the classic K&R2 and reading the C standard, you can get your tips/tricks by reading stack overflow posts, and man pages for your API reference. It's a luxury item. For comparison K&R2 sells for $51.99 new on amazon. I think a fair price would be $49.99.

paedubucher 7y ago

Maybe the others here in the forum can tell me, why I should risk buying the pre-order (30% off), when I have no chance of reading a sample chapter yet. (I'm actually thinking of doing this, because I'm looking for a good second book on C after having worked through K&R before.) When I see that Brian W. Kernighan releases a book, it's an instant buy for me.

paedubucher 7y ago
Nah, fuqit, I'll just buy it ;-) NoStarch never let me down so far, and paying USD 60 (or 40, or whatever) is such a marginal difference for a book you're going to spends dozens of hours on.
- clarry 7y ago
  > for a book you're going to spends dozens of hours on. Is that a feature? I'm constantly frustrated by books that use many words to say little. Wasting hours on such books tends to be negative value, and I shouldn't buy them even for two cents..
  - catilac 7y ago
    I have the same frustration, though in this case I think given the author's expertise I imagine all the words actually contain much wisdom. Hopefully!
  - dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago
    This is an interesting issue. I remember when I started studying discrete math, I actually bought two books. One was by Ross, and it's the one I prefer, but at places it was a bit terse. So when I had trouble understanding something right away, I looked at the same subject in Susanna Epp's book and usually I could find a relevant explanation or example straight away, but in the long term I couldn't stand this verbose style. (By the way, both books cost $80, but you can buy used copies at 1/10.)
  - paedubucher 7y ago
    Working through a technical book of any substance, as opposed to just reading or skimming it, will take dozens of hours, no matter how terse or verbose the style is. The book is supposed to be around 270 pages, so verbosity probably won't be an issue. I am right now working through "Python Crash Course" as an intermediate Python programmer. I very quickly read through chapters 1-8 so far and did all the exercises (rather simple ones), just to make sure that I'm not missing out anything on the basics. In the last couple of chapters, I actually picked up two or three pieces of knowledge I wasn't aware of. I spent around five to ten hours on this so far. This approach sounds terribly inefficient. However, working through a beginner's book as an intermediate Python programmer, and only getting half a dozen of really new information out of it, gives me the confidence I need at this stage. So I don't consider it as a waste, but rather as an exercise in patience and repetition. Why am I telling you all this? Because I think people overrate the monetary costs of books.
    - clarry 7y ago
      I kind of agree with your point, with the caveat that I just don't want to spend much money if I'm not getting much out of it. I'd happily buy a book for 200 eur if I knew it's going to be worth my time. In the recent years, I've mostly regretted the time I spent on books. Life is short, free time is scarce, and there are so many other things I could be doing. In this case, I'm definitely curious about the book and would like to skim through it just to satisfy that curiosity, but I have my doubts as to whether I'll get much out of it (I've been writing C for 15 years and I do it professionally). Maybe there are gems of wisdom (or things I've overlooked) in it that would make it worthwhile, but it's possible I'd just regret the time and money spent :-(
  - rcseacord 7y ago
    This book has a very concise writing style. I really wanted to keep it small enough to carry on an airplane (when we are allowed to fly again). I'm really proud of the final product and very happy with the editing staff at No Starch who helped me produce a very polished product.
    - paedubucher 7y ago
      Thanks for the insight! I really appreciate when the authors interact with the community. Many books nowadays, also from NoStarch, are released as early access books. Your book does not run under the early access program, or at least not yet. Is this a decision made by you as an author? Or is the kind of book not really suited for early access? I could imagine that introductory books work well as early access books; readers could work through the first couple of chapters, while later chapters are still being written or refined. Just curious...
      - rcseacord 7y ago
        No, I usually defer decisions concerning the marketing and availability of the book to the publisher. I try to stick to the areas where I'm actually a knowledgeable expert.
      - billpollock 7y ago
        We're getting caught up on our Early Access titles. Our staff is very particular about what they release and they don't like to put chapters in until they feel like they're really final. Given the current world situation I'm making sure that we relax that policy a bit and you'll see more books moving into Early Access in the next 2 or 3 weeks. Just a little hectic around my company at the moment.
        paedubucher 7y ago
        My intention was really not putting pressure on the publisher as a buyer of this book. I rather wonder why certain books have an early access option and others don't. I probably won't be able to read it before July, anyway, because I have to finish my bachelor's degree first. But I think it's not a bad time for a financial contribution to my favorite tech book publisher, so I already bought the book "blindly".
wmwragg 7y ago
I've recommended this on here before, but I’ve found "Understanding and Using C Pointers" by Richard Reese, a really wonderful modern book on C.
throwaway17_17 7y ago
It is a risk to by the preorder sight unseen. If you are not familiar with author and his style you could end up feeling like you wasted that money. So until a preview chapter or similar is available I’ll through this link to Modern C, 2nd Ed by Gustedt. It has been well received and I thought Jens writing style was solid. I don’t know if it is the perfect second book to read on C, but it seems well paced and things are well explained. https://modernc.gforge.inria.fr/ https://modernc.gforge.inria.fr/
- rcseacord 7y ago
  I'm checking with No Starch if we have plans to release a sample chapter of this book. There is a list of previous articles I've written including sample chapters from my previous books on Secure Codign in C and C++ and the CERT C Coding Standard here https://www.informit.com/authors/bio/3312572e-d904-45d5-afcd-389361c0f5af https://www.informit.com/authors/bio/3312572e-d904-45d5-afcd... Here is a newer article on Uninitialized Reads published by ACM https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3041020 https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3041020 Jens and I are both on the C Standards committee. I would definitely say that our books serve different markets.
  - throwaway17_17 7y ago
    I have your book on Secure Coding and I have the latest version of Jens’ book as well. I like both your style and his, in terms of writing style and presentation. If you think there is going to be a large difference in applicability and focus when comparing your ‘Effect C’ and Jens’ ‘Modern C’ I am kind of excited, not just to get your book, but also that even though some people would like to see C be relegated to the trash bin there is still some life left in a language I enjoy using.

ponow 7y ago

It's as fair that you can refuse to pay $60 as it is for the author to ask for it. It strikes me that most people who would pay $30 would also be willing pay $60 in this instance, as it's not as if many new C books are coming out nowadays. So I'm guessing that the author will do better at $60. Medieval notions of profit and the physical costs are mostly irrelevant, but the effort and expertise of the author are not.

tzjmetron 7y ago
It's not about the absolute cost. $60 in a developing country is a substantial sum of money.
- jfkebwjsbx 7y ago
  So? Should we price everything according to developing countries? Then only those living there could produce things.

petee 7y ago

For 272 pages written by probably the best person to be writing modern C books, from a small publisher who is known for quality books, sixty dollars doesn't sound unreasonable at all

ghostpepper 7y ago
Not to be rude to the author but what makes him the best person to be writing modern C books?
- rcseacord 7y ago
  So it's hard to say that I'm the best person to write a modern C book. A slightly lower bar might be, am I the best person who has actually written a modern C Book? Resume-wise, I've been writing C code since 1985, and I've been an expert on the C Standards Committee (WG14) since 2004. I've written two prior books on C Programming including "Secure Coding in C and C++" and "The CERT C Coding Standard". I also teach Secure Coding in C for NCC Group https://www.nccgroup.trust/us/our-services/cyber-security/security-training/secure-coding/ https://www.nccgroup.trust/us/our-services/cyber-security/se... and I also taught these topics to Computer Science undergraduates and graduate students at CMU for over a decade. So I think I have a good balance of technical skills and communications skills, but you know, pick up a copy and judge for yourself.
  - nrclark 7y ago
    If I buy a copy of your book, will you abuse your position to get constexpr into C? It would be a big improvement over complex macro magic. I'll buy an extra copy if you can get 'defer' in there too! Those two features would really be the bee's knees :)
    - rhexs 7y ago
      If you're looking for a low-level performance targeted language where anyone can add anything whatsoever, I've got great news! C++ already exists!

tzjmetron 7y ago

Yes, sadly unaffordable for people in developing countries such as myself.

cjg_ 7y ago

Get the ebook for $47 with a ebook 30% discount on their site? $33.

billpollock 7y ago
Use the coupon code PREORDER (posted on the book's page) and you get the print book + all DRM-free ebooks for US $42 (plus shipping costs)

agumonkey 7y ago

author had a few other books on secure programming maybe older books are cheaper

bla3 7y ago

In case you're interested in the book but can't afford it: it's off 30% until Apr 1 with THANKU30, see their main page.

beezle 7y ago

I have a 295 page book in production. The print cost for paper bound is $5.46 for case laminate $10.02. Contrary to what you may think, print costs are not going to limit $0. Quite the other way, they have risen over the past seven years from $4.72 and $9.82 (roughly inflation for the paper bound).

kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
2x in seven years is not inflation. This is what has annoyed me about pulp paperback fiction. They skyrocketed from $5 to $15 in 15 years. Then you can buy the eBook for $12 and feel like you're getting a "deal" on a product with near zero production costs.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

billpollock 7y ago

When you buy print books from us you get the DRM-free ebooks too. Amazon may ultimately discount this from the list price as they usually do but they are currently deprioritizing books due to the pandemic.

matvore 7y ago

Is it possible you don't need the book as much as the book's target audience, and that's why it seems overpriced?

readme 7y ago

I agree, that book can be replaced by reading the classic K&R2 and reading the C standard, you can get your tips/tricks by reading stack overflow posts, and man pages for your API reference. It's a luxury item. For comparison K&R2 sells for $51.99 new on amazon. I think a fair price would be $49.99.