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Huawei is in large part built upon technology stolen from Cisco and Canada's Nortel Networks. In the latter case, there is strong evidence China was able to mai

Huawei is in large part built upon technology stolen from Cisco and Canada's Nortel Networks. In the latter case, there is strong evidence China was able to maintain access to Nortel's internal networks for over a decade (!!) which helped kill the 117 year old company. [1] The government of China is systematically hacking corporations through the Ministry of State Security, and attempting to the switch the allegiances of all ethnically Chinese people across the world through the well-funded overseas political interference organization called the "United Front Work Department" [2]. In both the Australian and New Zealand parliaments, China has actually succeeded in installing individuals with undeclared links to government of China political interference and espionage organizations: Gladys Liu and Jian Yang. While there is no smoking gun that they are directly acting as spies, there is significant amounts of circumstantial evidence that they have been compromised by government of China influence operations. I don't need to explain the risk of politicians compromised by an adversarial government making key national defense decisions. With this reality, why would any government risk allowing Huawei in their networks? [1] https://www.afr.com/technology/how-chinese-hacking-felled-telecommunication-giant-nortel-20140526-iux6a https://www.afr.com/technology/how-chinese-hacking-felled-te... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTXPxWtl8Zw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTXPxWtl8Zw

baybal2 7y ago
> which helped kill the 117 year old company. [1] If Nortel ever been killed by somebody, that was by financial engineers from hedge funds, and inexperienced managers that came to board after the bubble popped
AndyMcConachie 7y ago
The idea that Nortel was killed by anything other than incompetence and mismanagement is laughably ignorant.
mettamage 7y ago
Aren't certain Chinese people in China relatively open about this on a high level? I mean, to me it always sounded as non-believable but there have been some places (documentaries or texts) where a Chinese person would say that the goal of China is to get Chinese people in high places all over the world in a 200+ year time span and then rule it. As I said, I never took it seriously. But maybe people should look into claims like that? Unfortunately, I can't find a source for this because it didn't happen that often and I'm not that politically minded.
blackrock 7y ago
This was already known. They settled this already. So Huawei already paid up for their malfeasance to break into a new market. However, does any of their new 5G technology come from Cisco or Nortel? Or any other American company? Did they also steal this 5G technology from Cisco?
LatteLazy 7y ago
>With this reality, why would any government risk allowing Huawei in their networks? Well firstly because the USA does the same thing. Being technologically ahead, it tends to work on giving it's companies an edge over regulators or competition rather than stealing tech. But no one is being fair here. So you're not choosing between a good guy and a bad guy I'm happy to agree the USA is morally less repugnant than China. I'm neither American nor Chinese but I'll take US hegemony over Chinese. But that's still picking the less bad option. And either way, you lose some sovereignty. And both nations will be in your infrastructure whether you buy their kit or not, because most such espionage is software based, so it doesn't really matter. So the question is really not the one your asking. A better question is, "how much will I lose to the security issue and how much will I gain from the tech I'm buying and how does this affect everything else I am doing including relations with both sides?" Since China has better 5G tech, and the loss is the same, you buy Chinese based only on the first part of that question. And that is the reason the USA is making so much noise: since the 70s, after the US got scared into pushing for technological progress by sputnik, the USA has been the leader in tech. Now Cisco etc have dropped the ball and the Chinese have edged ahead in this one product... It's also worth noting how unfairly EU/Asian companies have been treated in US markets over the last decade. There might be value buying Chinese to dissuade US bullying given that the age of peaceful cooperation (economically) seems to be over (Deutsch bank fines, Toyota recalls etc). Plus increasingly the EU wishes to deviate from us foreign policy and have its own policy. China doesn't care unless you're messing about in their back yard because they don't have much foreign policy beyond there. But the US expects compliance world wide. If you buy Cisco, and then refuse to sanction Iran for no reason, will you still be able to get Cisco spares? You can disagree with my assessment of parts of this, that's fine. But the point is, this is 100 times more complex than buying a knock off version with security flaws or a proper piece of kit... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-bra... https://www.cnet.com/news/nsa-spied-on-eu-antitrust-official-who-sparred-with-us-tech-giants/ https://www.cnet.com/news/nsa-spied-on-eu-antitrust-official... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/16/iran-says-it-is-enriching-more-uranium-than-before-nuclear-deal https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/16/iran-says-it-i...
- shasheene 7y ago
hrktb 7y ago
> stolen from That kind of issue is solved in court with proofs and compensations. Cisco is no small bullied kid and should deal with it without us crying a river about it. They also infringe patents, get caught, pay up settlement fees and continue business as usual. Not going down this route in this specific case makes it look way more dirty on US side IMO. > hacking Cisco has been caught countless times spreading NSA backdoors to the world, they shouldn’t get any moral pass. I think it comes down to who’s wrongdoing you are willing to turn a blind eye on. If you’re not an US citizen nor don’t see US gov as a reliable ally, the whole Huawei vs the US feud has no clear moral or ethical split.
- pas 7y ago
  The US gov - despite all the terrible deeds in its short history - builds upon a very strong civil liberties foundation, whereas China is a one-party totalitarian dictatorship. Sure, there's no "clear" ethical split, but just putting both of them into the naughty bin won't do anyone much good. Most of the people on HN don't want anyone spying on them, but that doesn't mean there is no point in clearly stating that Huawei products somehow represent a greater risk than Cisco's overpriced every-year-re-branded legacy junk.
  - hrktb 7y ago
    It’s hard to argue an entity does terrible things while putting aside all their terrible deeds. How would you judge if what they’re doing regarding Huawei is not one of them ? To my knowledge nothing of interest has been put on table as proof or objective justification of the ban at this point. The point is not if the US gov is better than the Chinese one, it’s how other countries deal with the US gov having a beef against a foreign company.
thulecitizen 7y ago
> there is strong evidence China was able to maintain access to Nortel's internal networks for over a decade (!!) Who is this China you speak of?

baybal2 7y ago

> which helped kill the 117 year old company. [1] If Nortel ever been killed by somebody, that was by financial engineers from hedge funds, and inexperienced managers that came to board after the bubble popped

AndyMcConachie 7y ago

The idea that Nortel was killed by anything other than incompetence and mismanagement is laughably ignorant.

mettamage 7y ago

Aren't certain Chinese people in China relatively open about this on a high level? I mean, to me it always sounded as non-believable but there have been some places (documentaries or texts) where a Chinese person would say that the goal of China is to get Chinese people in high places all over the world in a 200+ year time span and then rule it. As I said, I never took it seriously. But maybe people should look into claims like that? Unfortunately, I can't find a source for this because it didn't happen that often and I'm not that politically minded.

blackrock 7y ago

This was already known. They settled this already. So Huawei already paid up for their malfeasance to break into a new market. However, does any of their new 5G technology come from Cisco or Nortel? Or any other American company? Did they also steal this 5G technology from Cisco?

LatteLazy 7y ago

>With this reality, why would any government risk allowing Huawei in their networks? Well firstly because the USA does the same thing. Being technologically ahead, it tends to work on giving it's companies an edge over regulators or competition rather than stealing tech. But no one is being fair here. So you're not choosing between a good guy and a bad guy I'm happy to agree the USA is morally less repugnant than China. I'm neither American nor Chinese but I'll take US hegemony over Chinese. But that's still picking the less bad option. And either way, you lose some sovereignty. And both nations will be in your infrastructure whether you buy their kit or not, because most such espionage is software based, so it doesn't really matter. So the question is really not the one your asking. A better question is, "how much will I lose to the security issue and how much will I gain from the tech I'm buying and how does this affect everything else I am doing including relations with both sides?" Since China has better 5G tech, and the loss is the same, you buy Chinese based only on the first part of that question. And that is the reason the USA is making so much noise: since the 70s, after the US got scared into pushing for technological progress by sputnik, the USA has been the leader in tech. Now Cisco etc have dropped the ball and the Chinese have edged ahead in this one product... It's also worth noting how unfairly EU/Asian companies have been treated in US markets over the last decade. There might be value buying Chinese to dissuade US bullying given that the age of peaceful cooperation (economically) seems to be over (Deutsch bank fines, Toyota recalls etc). Plus increasingly the EU wishes to deviate from us foreign policy and have its own policy. China doesn't care unless you're messing about in their back yard because they don't have much foreign policy beyond there. But the US expects compliance world wide. If you buy Cisco, and then refuse to sanction Iran for no reason, will you still be able to get Cisco spares? You can disagree with my assessment of parts of this, that's fine. But the point is, this is 100 times more complex than buying a knock off version with security flaws or a proper piece of kit... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-bra... https://www.cnet.com/news/nsa-spied-on-eu-antitrust-official-who-sparred-with-us-tech-giants/ https://www.cnet.com/news/nsa-spied-on-eu-antitrust-official... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/16/iran-says-it-is-enriching-more-uranium-than-before-nuclear-deal https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/16/iran-says-it-i...

shasheene 7y ago

hrktb 7y ago

> stolen from That kind of issue is solved in court with proofs and compensations. Cisco is no small bullied kid and should deal with it without us crying a river about it. They also infringe patents, get caught, pay up settlement fees and continue business as usual. Not going down this route in this specific case makes it look way more dirty on US side IMO. > hacking Cisco has been caught countless times spreading NSA backdoors to the world, they shouldn’t get any moral pass. I think it comes down to who’s wrongdoing you are willing to turn a blind eye on. If you’re not an US citizen nor don’t see US gov as a reliable ally, the whole Huawei vs the US feud has no clear moral or ethical split.

pas 7y ago
The US gov - despite all the terrible deeds in its short history - builds upon a very strong civil liberties foundation, whereas China is a one-party totalitarian dictatorship. Sure, there's no "clear" ethical split, but just putting both of them into the naughty bin won't do anyone much good. Most of the people on HN don't want anyone spying on them, but that doesn't mean there is no point in clearly stating that Huawei products somehow represent a greater risk than Cisco's overpriced every-year-re-branded legacy junk.
- hrktb 7y ago
  It’s hard to argue an entity does terrible things while putting aside all their terrible deeds. How would you judge if what they’re doing regarding Huawei is not one of them ? To my knowledge nothing of interest has been put on table as proof or objective justification of the ban at this point. The point is not if the US gov is better than the Chinese one, it’s how other countries deal with the US gov having a beef against a foreign company.

thulecitizen 7y ago

> there is strong evidence China was able to maintain access to Nortel's internal networks for over a decade (!!) Who is this China you speak of?