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> But that's what you're doing. I don't think the WHO is trying to get people sick, or that China is doing this to the USA, or anything like that. I do think t

> But that's what you're doing. I don't think the WHO is trying to get people sick, or that China is doing this to the USA, or anything like that. I do think that something doesn't smell right, but I'm unwilling to make any kind of conclusion on what it might be. As for the person-to-person thing, I lived through the storm of data and information and distinctly remember them claiming there was no evidence of person-to-person transmission after I had seen multiple bits of evidence out of China. To prove that, I'd have to do a lot of wayback machine work. People have been contagious before symptoms and also without showing any symptoms. I thought this knowledge was widespread at this point. The 3rd case and 5th case in NZ were a couple where the 5th case (wife) travelled to Iran. The man got sick after she returned. She was not sick. They tested her and she was positive and became the 5th case. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12313960 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&object... https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12314739 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&object... Probably sexual transmission, so not too suprising. But there are many other reports which the CDC acknowledges on this page: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-si... The question on ACE/ACE2 has references itself: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30116-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2...

throwaway_pdp09 7y ago
I agree WRT china something stinks. My guess is it is just realpolitik. A lot of useful info was coming out of china (as well as lies) and maybe the WHO needed to bite its tongue to keep that channel open (China being... odd in its reactions to criticism). I'll accept your point about no P2P transmission claim as I remember it too, and I suspect that was just parroted back from China early on - but they've not said that for a while. The ACE stuff from your links just says 'we suspect'. The WHO has indeed spoken on this recently (https://mobile.twitter.com/WHO/status/1240409217997189128 https://mobile.twitter.com/WHO/status/1240409217997189128): "WHO is aware of concerns on the use of #ibuprofen for the treatment of fever for people with #COVID19. We are consulting with physicians treating the patients & are not aware of reports of any negative effects, beyond the usual ones that limit its use in certain populations" You're being unfair here, they have spoken and it's clear they don't feel enough to recommend for or against at this point. Getting clean yes/no info out of a filthy cloud of murk like this covid situation - I'm glad I'm not them. Nonetheless, thank you for a civil and informative reply
- mikedilger 7y ago
  Ibuprofen is one thing. ACEI and ARBs are another. I'm prescribed the maximum dose of an ACE inhibitor and I really want to know whether or not the scarcity of Angiotensin II has caused the ACE2 receptors to upregulate in compensation. It seems like it would, and studies on animals show it does at least in some contexts (https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m810/rr-2 https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m810/rr-2). I completely understand it would be dangerous to suggest publicly as people might suddenly stop their blood pressure medicines and we'd have a spate of heart attacks and strokes. But it might be equally dangerous to not phase them off, at least for a few months, and onto something else in the meantime. Other links I have on this topic that might be relevant: https://www.healio.com/cardiology/vascular-medicine/news/online/%7Bfe7f0842-aecb-417b-9ecf-3fe7e0ddd991%7D/cardiology-societies-recommend-patients-taking-ace-inhibitors-arbs-who-contract-covid-19-should-continue-treatment https://www.healio.com/cardiology/vascular-medicine/news/onl... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-020-0147-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-020-0147-1 https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m810/rr-2 https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m810/rr-2 https://www.eshonline.org/spotlights/esh-statement-on-covid-19/ https://www.eshonline.org/spotlights/esh-statement-on-covid-... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32064853/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32064853/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1829448/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1829448/
  - throwaway_pdp09 7y ago
    I understood ibuprofen was relevant: "ibuprofen could increase the expression of ACE2 receptors that the virus uses to bind to cells" (https://www.popsugar.co.uk/fitness/should-you-avoid-taking-ibuprofen-for-coronavirus-47346512 https://www.popsugar.co.uk/fitness/should-you-avoid-taking-i...) And you originally said > upregulating the expression of ACE2 receptors So ibuprofen is relevant. And your first link says “This speculation about the safety of ACE inhibitor or angiotensin receptor blockers treatment in relation to COVID-19 does not have a sound scientific basis or evidence to support it,” de Simone wrote in the ESC statement. “Indeed, there is evidence from studies in animals suggesting that these medications might be rather protective against serious lung complications in patients with COVID-19 infection, but to date there are no data in humans. The Council on Hypertension strongly recommends that physicians and patients should continue treatment with their usual antihypertensive therapy because there is no clinical or scientific evidence to suggest that treatment with ACE inhibitors or angiotensin receptor blockers should be discontinued because of the COVID-19 infection.” THEY DON'T HAVE THE INFO TO MAKE A DECISION ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. STOP SPREADING YOUR NON-EXPERT OPINION AS IF IT WERE FACT. WHO repeating CCP bullshit is one thing, but you are not being honest here. Stop this. Now I'm going to stop because I have some work to do that is laterally related to covid and I need to get on with it.

throwaway_pdp09 7y ago

I agree WRT china something stinks. My guess is it is just realpolitik. A lot of useful info was coming out of china (as well as lies) and maybe the WHO needed to bite its tongue to keep that channel open (China being... odd in its reactions to criticism). I'll accept your point about no P2P transmission claim as I remember it too, and I suspect that was just parroted back from China early on - but they've not said that for a while. The ACE stuff from your links just says 'we suspect'. The WHO has indeed spoken on this recently (https://mobile.twitter.com/WHO/status/1240409217997189128 https://mobile.twitter.com/WHO/status/1240409217997189128): "WHO is aware of concerns on the use of #ibuprofen for the treatment of fever for people with #COVID19. We are consulting with physicians treating the patients & are not aware of reports of any negative effects, beyond the usual ones that limit its use in certain populations" You're being unfair here, they have spoken and it's clear they don't feel enough to recommend for or against at this point. Getting clean yes/no info out of a filthy cloud of murk like this covid situation - I'm glad I'm not them. Nonetheless, thank you for a civil and informative reply

mikedilger 7y ago
Ibuprofen is one thing. ACEI and ARBs are another. I'm prescribed the maximum dose of an ACE inhibitor and I really want to know whether or not the scarcity of Angiotensin II has caused the ACE2 receptors to upregulate in compensation. It seems like it would, and studies on animals show it does at least in some contexts (https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m810/rr-2 https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m810/rr-2). I completely understand it would be dangerous to suggest publicly as people might suddenly stop their blood pressure medicines and we'd have a spate of heart attacks and strokes. But it might be equally dangerous to not phase them off, at least for a few months, and onto something else in the meantime. Other links I have on this topic that might be relevant: https://www.healio.com/cardiology/vascular-medicine/news/online/%7Bfe7f0842-aecb-417b-9ecf-3fe7e0ddd991%7D/cardiology-societies-recommend-patients-taking-ace-inhibitors-arbs-who-contract-covid-19-should-continue-treatment https://www.healio.com/cardiology/vascular-medicine/news/onl... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-020-0147-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-020-0147-1 https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m810/rr-2 https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m810/rr-2 https://www.eshonline.org/spotlights/esh-statement-on-covid-19/ https://www.eshonline.org/spotlights/esh-statement-on-covid-... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32064853/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32064853/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1829448/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1829448/
- throwaway_pdp09 7y ago
  I understood ibuprofen was relevant: "ibuprofen could increase the expression of ACE2 receptors that the virus uses to bind to cells" (https://www.popsugar.co.uk/fitness/should-you-avoid-taking-ibuprofen-for-coronavirus-47346512 https://www.popsugar.co.uk/fitness/should-you-avoid-taking-i...) And you originally said > upregulating the expression of ACE2 receptors So ibuprofen is relevant. And your first link says “This speculation about the safety of ACE inhibitor or angiotensin receptor blockers treatment in relation to COVID-19 does not have a sound scientific basis or evidence to support it,” de Simone wrote in the ESC statement. “Indeed, there is evidence from studies in animals suggesting that these medications might be rather protective against serious lung complications in patients with COVID-19 infection, but to date there are no data in humans. The Council on Hypertension strongly recommends that physicians and patients should continue treatment with their usual antihypertensive therapy because there is no clinical or scientific evidence to suggest that treatment with ACE inhibitors or angiotensin receptor blockers should be discontinued because of the COVID-19 infection.” THEY DON'T HAVE THE INFO TO MAKE A DECISION ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. STOP SPREADING YOUR NON-EXPERT OPINION AS IF IT WERE FACT. WHO repeating CCP bullshit is one thing, but you are not being honest here. Stop this. Now I'm going to stop because I have some work to do that is laterally related to covid and I need to get on with it.